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Author Topic: the continuing story of the 2008 political election  (Read 78697 times)
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Andrew_TSKS
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Posts: 39426


« Reply #200 on: Feb 07, 2008, 02:41:33 PM »

i think freddy's comments about what the solution would be are perfectly reasonable. the problem is that the republican base is eminently unreasonable about the issue, and would like to build a great wall of china-style barrier along our southern border, which would be patrolled by national guardsmen with machine guns and infrared goggles.

this, by the way, is also why the republicans are going to blow it where the hispanic vote is concerned. 2/3 of the general population is in favor of working out something amicable with latin immigrants, and i'm sure that number escalates dramatically in the hispanic-american population. meanwhile, the republicans are discussing things like overturning the birth-citizenship law just to keep any more hispanic people from gaining legal status as americans. which makes it obvious that some of this republican "seal-the-borders" rhetoric is motivated by racial hatred, which will of course only drive the hispanic voters further towards the democratic party.
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Andrew_TSKS
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« Reply #201 on: Feb 07, 2008, 02:44:22 PM »

another interesting note: obama has raised $6 million since super tuesday

which, yes, was 2 days ago.
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elpollodiablo
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« Reply #202 on: Feb 07, 2008, 02:47:47 PM »

I mean I agree w/Freddy too in that the sensible thing to do to dissuade people coming here to work illegally is to focus enforcement on those employing illegals, but that just isn't gonna work, not unless you want to completely restructure the ways in which a few key industries (mine included) do business. You're also going to have to accept skyrocketing prices on produce and sundry other goods, because no American is going to pick cabbage for $3/hr. It would be excellent if they could formulate some kinda system for work visas or just make it easier for migrant workers to gain actual citizenship--these people should be possessed of the agency to organize and demand what any other American laborer could! But if that's the way we want to do things--the right way, I'd say the moral way--we're going to have to brace the rest of the country for some hard times to come. Right?
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elpollodiablo
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« Reply #203 on: Feb 07, 2008, 02:49:47 PM »

I'm totally cool with Obama if he's the more electable. I'd still like to think that having a woman at the helm might be good for the national psyche in the long run, but progress comes in many forms, I guess.

Regardless, I don't think I've ever felt so positive about the American political climate as I do right now.
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FreddyKnuckles
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Posts: 11705


« Reply #204 on: Feb 07, 2008, 02:56:29 PM »

That argument assumes that companies can't afford to pay field workers minimum wage, and will have to raise prices to compensate.  If they have no choice but to pay a fair wage to their employees, what are they going to do?  There's a difference between not-profiting-as-much and not-being-able-to-do-it-without-raising-prices.
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elpollodiablo
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« Reply #205 on: Feb 07, 2008, 02:59:37 PM »

Well you and I know that they wouldn't have to raise prices, but it's precisely what they'll do. Sales might fluctuate for a bit, but they'll level off with regard to the essential stuff, like produce. You think the gov't would actually force them to keep prices down?
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DCDave
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Posts: 10387


« Reply #206 on: Feb 07, 2008, 03:10:07 PM »

Well you and I know that they wouldn't have to raise prices, but it's precisely what they'll do. Sales might fluctuate for a bit, but they'll level off with regard to the essential stuff, like produce. You think the gov't would actually force them to keep prices down?

Most companies don't make 10% profits.  Most companies make 3% profits.  So most companies have to raise prices if they raise wages. 
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FreddyKnuckles
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« Reply #207 on: Feb 07, 2008, 03:10:44 PM »

Price control is possible because agriculture is so heavily subsidized anyway--to the extent that the government pretty much pays for most of the produce grown in the country anyway.  government subsidies have the fun little side-effect of giving the government leverage over pricing.  Other necessities, like non-oil energies, don't have price caps, but they do have profit caps. 


Regardless, I don't think I've ever felt so positive about the American political climate as I do right now.

I don't like any of the candidates but then again I never do. 

Obama: Seems like a genuine person and doesn't give me the heebie jeebies the way the other candidates do. I don't really think he knows what he's doing, and I think his policy points are based around happy little one liners, that, while inspiring, don't seem to have a lot behind him.  We know we can.

Clinton: Rubs me the wrong way.  I don't like her health care plan.  I don't like her shady politics.  I don't like the way this campaign has turned Bill from articulate statesman into a snarling campaign henchman.  I don't like the idea of our first female president rising through the political ranks because of her incredibly popular ex president husband. 

John McCain: Reasonable person.  Doesn't change his beliefs depending on who he's talking to.  Told the Iowa Ethanol Lobby of Doom that they could eat his wang which deserves some mad mad props, told the michigan auto clingers the same thing.  but he's old.  and boring.  and he's awkward. etc.  Politically, he'll reach out across the aisle, but he'll also burn bridges as fast as he builds them.  etc.



although I shouldn't be such a debbie-downer.  A McCain/Huckabee vs. Obama/? would leave this country with 2 waaaaay better options than the Kerry vs. bush insanity
« Last Edit: Feb 07, 2008, 03:14:10 PM by FreddyKnuckles » Logged

Quote from: Heathcote
I'm in with Greg Nog, IT'S FUCKING FAFFLE TIME!
dieblucasdie
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« Reply #208 on: Feb 07, 2008, 03:17:55 PM »

Its really too bad that Romney and Mccain butted heads.  I think they'd make a good pair.

Huck's not a terrible choice for a running mate, but he doesn't really have anything that McCain doesn't.  They share religious and social views.  Further, both men are considered 'weak' on immigration by the party. 



If it's McCain vs. Obama, Obama has the potential to make TN and even GA competitive (even if he doesn't win there, forcing McCain to spend time and money in the South would be a big coup).  McCain's gonna need Southern white dudes to come out in force, and Huckabee could help with that.  Especially if he doesn't have the backing of the evangelical machine (Dobson:  "I will *never* support John McCain")

Immigration is not going to be a major an issue in the general election, especially if the economy doesn't get better.  It's not going to be important in any of the states that are actually important.  Also I think people have a tendency to see the Latino vote as a monolithic bloc, partially because the African-American vote has been like that for so long.  The "Latino vote" has the same age, gender, and class divides that the white vote has, even if it leans a more Democratic overall.  And that's not even taking into account that there's Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, Cubans, Dominicans, etc.  
« Last Edit: Feb 07, 2008, 03:34:44 PM by dieblucasdie » Logged

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dieblucasdie
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« Reply #209 on: Feb 07, 2008, 03:20:54 PM »

Also no matter how you shake it building a giant wall to keep out poor people is fucked.

edit:  Also, has anyone seen all the eminent domain suits w/r/t the wall?  Half of the UT-Brownsville campus will be on the Mexican side, etc.  It makes me kinda lol that same people who flipped the fuck out at Kelo v. New London are using it to great effect for their pet project.
« Last Edit: Feb 07, 2008, 03:24:02 PM by dieblucasdie » Logged

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FreddyKnuckles
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« Reply #210 on: Feb 07, 2008, 03:23:28 PM »

yeah, I never said it wasn't.

Immigration is a bit of sleeper issue though, and really riles people up in the south.  McCain/Huckabee could have a lot of trouble drumming up that southern white dude support you were just talking about given their approach to immigration
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FreddyKnuckles
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« Reply #211 on: Feb 07, 2008, 03:24:19 PM »

another interesting note: obama has raised $6 million since super tuesday

which, yes, was 2 days ago.

shit son, paul can raise 6 mil in like 15 minutes
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I'm in with Greg Nog, IT'S FUCKING FAFFLE TIME!
dieblucasdie
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« Reply #212 on: Feb 07, 2008, 03:30:17 PM »

Heh, that reminded me to go look at the AK caucus results, since they came in so late the other night.  Paul only took third?  What a bitch.  What did he do with all that money?


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FreddyKnuckles
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« Reply #213 on: Feb 07, 2008, 03:55:57 PM »

machine that controls the weather
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Quote from: Heathcote
I'm in with Greg Nog, IT'S FUCKING FAFFLE TIME!
Andrew_TSKS
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Posts: 39426


« Reply #214 on: Feb 07, 2008, 04:07:13 PM »

I'm totally cool with Obama if he's the more electable. I'd still like to think that having a woman at the helm might be good for the national psyche in the long run, but progress comes in many forms, I guess.

i know this sounds like i'm giving you shit, miles, and i don't intend for it to, because i know this is one of those things that's pretty deeply woven into the fabric of our society. nonetheless, i have to balk a bit at this whole "a woman at the helm" thinking, because (as with a lot of things that wig me out having to do with men vs. women) it's a statement predicated on the idea that there is an inherent difference between the personalities of men and women, and i don't think that's anywhere near true. based on what i know of hillary clinton's personality, i don't think her being in office would be any different than bill clinton being in office was... and yes, that means that, since i liked bill clinton all right as a president, i don't really think hillary would be that bad. i merely think obama is a slightly better choice. BUT, i don't think her being a woman has jack shit to do with what kind of president she would be, and that's the important part of what i'm trying to say here.

Clinton: Rubs me the wrong way.  I don't like her health care plan.  I don't like her shady politics.  I don't like the way this campaign has turned Bill from articulate statesman into a snarling campaign henchman.  I don't like the idea of our first female president rising through the political ranks because of her incredibly popular ex president husband. 

although I shouldn't be such a debbie-downer.  A McCain/Huckabee vs. Obama/? would leave this country with 2 waaaaay better options than the Kerry vs. bush insanity

on a more positive note, i agree 100% with everything freddy said here. really, even mccain is nowhere near as bad as bush.
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dieblucasdie
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« Reply #215 on: Feb 07, 2008, 04:12:19 PM »

Though McCain is old and I'd be terrified he'd croak in office and we'd get a President Huckabee
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nonotyet
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« Reply #216 on: Feb 07, 2008, 04:13:56 PM »

Reagan was older. And that turned out fine!
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Andrew_TSKS
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« Reply #217 on: Feb 07, 2008, 04:26:58 PM »

sarah, reagan took office when he was 69. mccain is 71. and reagan was obviously going senile by 1987.

Immigration is not going to be a major an issue in the general election, especially if the economy doesn't get better.  It's not going to be important in any of the states that are actually important.  Also I think people have a tendency to see the Latino vote as a monolithic bloc, partially because the African-American vote has been like that for so long.  The "Latino vote" has the same age, gender, and class divides that the white vote has, even if it leans a more Democratic overall.  And that's not even taking into account that there's Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, Cubans, Dominicans, etc.

i think you're making a big error in judgment here, blucas. all the democratic candidate has to do is make the republican candidate talk about the immigration issue to cause serious problems. the hispanic constituency is growing, and it's way less likely that hispanic people will vote for a candidate who talks about sealing borders--and hispanic voters are more likely than whites to be socially conservative, so they have the potential to be a good republican demographic, if they're wooed properly. bush pulled a significant amount of the hispanic demographic with his "guest worker" talk in 2000--which was a bullshit idea, but nonetheless worked in his favor where that demographic was concerned. it pissed off the base, slightly, but not enough to hurt him. it WILL hurt mccain, though, especially since immigration is a much bigger republican-base issue than it was 8 years ago. unless, of course, he takes the "build a wall" position (and he seems to be leaning towards it)--which will alienate hispanic voters. either way mccain goes, he loses votes. and you say this isn't going to affect any important states, but california could swing mccain's way where it didn't swing bush's, and arizona and new mexico have been important swing states over the past decade. and then there's texas, which was solidly republican in 2000 and 2004, if i remember correctly. no, this is an important issue.
« Last Edit: Feb 07, 2008, 04:29:09 PM by Andrew_TSKS » Logged

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DCDave
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« Reply #218 on: Feb 07, 2008, 04:36:24 PM »

Voters who staunchly care about immigration in the general election aren't going to vote for Hillary, and they probably will turn out, because the local/state races down-ballot will make them come to the polls.  McCain can be moderate on immigration w/o losing votes.
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dieblucasdie
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« Reply #219 on: Feb 07, 2008, 04:38:54 PM »

1)  McCain is the least militant about immigration, and obviously he'd dial even that back for the general.  Also, the only swing states where it would matter are in the Southwest, and McCain's a lock there anyhow.
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slow west vultures
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Posts: 2326


« Reply #220 on: Feb 07, 2008, 04:40:31 PM »

Romney is done

highlight of the article:

Quote
"If I fight on in my campaign, all the way to the convention, I would forestall the launch of a national campaign and make it more likely that Senator Clinton or Obama would win. And in this time of war, I simply cannot let my campaign, be a part of aiding a surrender to terror," Romney told the Conservative Political Action Conference in Washington.

you heard it here first, folks: democrats winning = surrendering to terror.

i don't know if what i heard on the radio was part of his concession speech or whatever, but it was him impassionately talking about how restraining globalization and free trade was hurting american middle class families, and how we need to rid american government of the insidious influence labor unions have over it.  god fucking damnit, what a douche.  
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davy
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« Reply #221 on: Feb 07, 2008, 05:19:03 PM »

Though McCain is old and I'd be terrified he'd croak in office and we'd get a President Huckabee

no kidding. huckabee seems like a super-nice guy and all, but dude's an ordained minister, right?

that should disqualify him outright as far as i'm concerned.
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elpollodiablo
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Posts: 32624


« Reply #222 on: Feb 07, 2008, 05:47:52 PM »

I'm totally cool with Obama if he's the more electable. I'd still like to think that having a woman at the helm might be good for the national psyche in the long run, but progress comes in many forms, I guess.

i know this sounds like i'm giving you shit, miles, and i don't intend for it to, because i know this is one of those things that's pretty deeply woven into the fabric of our society. nonetheless, i have to balk a bit at this whole "a woman at the helm" thinking, because (as with a lot of things that wig me out having to do with men vs. women) it's a statement predicated on the idea that there is an inherent difference between the personalities of men and women, and i don't think that's anywhere near true. based on what i know of hillary clinton's personality, i don't think her being in office would be any different than bill clinton being in office was... and yes, that means that, since i liked bill clinton all right as a president, i don't really think hillary would be that bad. i merely think obama is a slightly better choice. BUT, i don't think her being a woman has jack shit to do with what kind of president she would be, and that's the important part of what i'm trying to say here.


I appreciate you prefacing that as you did, and I don't want to get into another biologically- vs. socially-imparted gender identity argument, but I think it's a bit naiive to dismiss the idea of a woman president making different (perhaps more nuanced) decisions w/r/t like public health issues, equal rights, abortion legislation &c. because she has experienced the world as a woman and thus has perhaps more insight into things which are necessarily and biologically foreign to those who have experienced things as a man. I don't want to be so reductionist as to say like "Oh with a woman running things we'd have a kinder, gentler foreign policy" or any such bullshit, only that I think some of the social legislation and such that affects women might be better mediated by having a woman in the White House with veto power and the national stage.
« Last Edit: Feb 07, 2008, 05:49:56 PM by elpollodiablo » Logged

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Thermofusion
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« Reply #223 on: Feb 07, 2008, 08:31:25 PM »

The Romney speech was straight up vitriolic.  My jaw dropped when I listened to it; I didn't think he was quite THIS much of a nazi whackjob.

Quote
"Opportunity is in our DNA"

As long as you're white

Quote
The 1960’s welfare programs created a culture of poverty.

"I'm gonna use whatever millions I have left to build a time machine and kill MLK just a little sooner."

Quote
Some think we won that battle when we reformed welfare, but the liberals haven’t given up. At every turn, they try to substitute government largesse for individual responsibility. They fight to strip work requirements from welfare, to put more people on Medicaid, and to remove more and more people from having to pay any income tax whatsoever."

"Douchebags like myself oppresssed black people for two centuries, only to expect them to be socioeconomically equal to whites a few decades after the Civil Rights movement.  Not to put a fine point on it, but this makes my dick very, very hard."

Quote
Dependency is death to initiative, risk-taking and opportunity.

"I have a dependency on staring in the mirror during sex"

Quote
The attack on faith and religion is no less relentless. And tolerance for pornography—even celebration of it—and sexual promiscuity, combined with the twisted incentives of government welfare programs have led to today’s grim realities: 68% of African American children are born out-of-wedlock, 45% of Hispanic children, and 25% of White children.

"White people don't fuck as much as coloreds, but commie welfare makes the niggas spit out da babies."

Quote
Did you see that today, government workers make more money than people who work in the private sector. Can you imagine what happens to an economy where the best opportunities are for bureaucrats?

"Let's all fight to ensure the best opportunities stay with the privileged white sons of wealthy politicians."

Quote
In one wing of the world of Islam, there is a conviction that all governments should be destroyed and replaced by a religious caliphate.

"And in the other wing of the world of Islam, there's a handsome sitting room with vinyl loveseats and copies of Reader's Digest."

Quote
These Jihadists will battle any form of democracy—to them, democracy is blasphemous for it says that citizens, not God shape the law. They find the idea of human equality to be offensive.

"It is truly a gift to be this fucking ironic."

Quote
I hate to lose

"I'm the kind of guy who'd punch his own mother over a game of Scrabble."









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Antero
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Posts: 7526


« Reply #224 on: Feb 07, 2008, 09:11:02 PM »

Quote
These Jihadists will battle any form of democracy—to them, democracy is blasphemous for it says that citizens, not God shape the law. They find the idea of human equality to be offensive.

"It is truly a gift to be this fucking ironic."
*applause*
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Quote from: nonotyet
this has been OPINIONS IN CAPSLOCK
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