*
*
Home
Help
Search
Login
Register
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Dec 20, 2014, 07:13:24 AM

Login with username, password and session length
Search: Advanced search
658302 Posts in 9264 Topics by 3396 Members Latest Member: - vlozan86 Most online today: 53 - most online ever: 494 (Jul 01, 2007, 02:59:53 PM)
Pages: 1 ... 16 17 18 19 20 [21] 22
Print
Author Topic: Super Tuesday 2! Election primary 08  (Read 81814 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Tom
Registered user

Posts: 15


« Reply #500 on: Mar 19, 2008, 12:40:12 PM »

meanwhile conservatives cackle at the mounting division among democrats and plan to continue voting for Hillary in primaries like they did in Ohio and Texas.



well good for y'all.  but when it's McCain versus HRC or Obama in the debates, and Americans see that McCain is, mentally, a shell of his former self (you did see his speech yesterday, right?), we'll see who's laughing.
Logged
Andrew_TSKS
Registered user

Posts: 39426


« Reply #501 on: Mar 19, 2008, 12:46:09 PM »

miles, i could respect your hatred of obama if it ever seemed in any way rational or informed. as it is, i feel like you just hate the idea that he's trying to make people hopeful, and see it as your job to rain on everyone's parade. that shit drives me up a wall.
Logged

I just want to be myself and I want you to love me for who I am.
elpollodiablo
Registered user

Posts: 32624


« Reply #502 on: Mar 19, 2008, 01:00:31 PM »

I do not hate Obama. I've said repeatedly that I like him, I like his policies, I think he's gonna win and should win. I hate the reaction to Obama, the people fainting at his speeches, the chanting at the rallies, the vague inspirational rhetoric, the unwillingness or inability of his supporters to countenance any sort of criticism or skepticism... all of this frightens me a little bit. When you valorize politicians in such a way that they begin to seem otherworldly, something intrinsically above and apart from their constituency... I dunno. I don't like it. I like him, I think he'd make a great president. But this cult of personality bullshit makes me queasy, and not just because, as you seem to think, I'm just naturally contrarian and enjoy taking people down a peg or whatever. It's that once we start giving these people a pass on issues of accountability, that's when they realize they have carte blanche to do whatever they please. If you truly believe in Obama and his rhetoric, his message, whatever, you should hold him up to a standard higher than that of any politician that's come before him. Not give him the benefit of the doubt in every instance. It makes for a complacent electorate and domineering elected officials.
Logged

think 'on the road.'
Andrew_TSKS
Registered user

Posts: 39426


« Reply #503 on: Mar 19, 2008, 01:09:03 PM »

first of all, i appreciate that you took the time to say all that, and while to some extent i feel like it's the same as hating a band because of their fans, you also have a valid point--obama shouldn't be given a free pass. i don't know if there's any instance where you feel like i in particular have let him slide over something he should have been taken to task about, and if so, i'd be glad to discuss it. hell, maybe i was wrong. but on the matter of this particular speech, i really do think he did the right thing.

first and foremost, he didn't throw wright under the bus. i actually would have respected that a lot less than i respect the stance he took. sticking with the guy, saying he disagrees with what he said but loves the man, may not be enough for some people, but i don't think those people will be voting democrat in november no matter who gets the nomination. i'm sure you know what i mean on that one. but really, i think it's a principled stand, for him to refuse to deny his connection with the guy even as he distances himself from the substance of the guy's remarks. the things he said about how all of us have someone in our family like this resonates with me, especially since that's MOST of my family for me. and i like that he used it as an opportunity to discuss the racial issues that exist in this country, and in the course of doing so, was sympathetic to the problems that both the black and white working class communities face, and understanding about how these problems could send both groups towards race-based fears and angers.

in fact, the best part for me is that in the end, he brought it around to the fact that rich people and corporations are to blame for the problems working class people of every color face, something i believe deep in my heart to be true. he soft-pedaled it, because you have to to get such a message past the mainstream's kneejerk reactions, but he's fucking right. and i do worry that being this forthright will lose the guy the election, but i respect him for saying this stuff instead of doing the "how much ass should i kiss? how many people must i throw under the bus to keep as many votes as possible?" dance that most politicians make a matter of course. the guy showed that he has a point beyond which he won't go to get votes, and i respect that. i'd really rather him lose the election because of that than be willing to throw over any supporter and any position he has to in order to get into office. because if he was willing to do the latter, i wouldn't trust him to get anything done once he got there.

EDIT: oops, there i go discussing the speech after all.
Logged

I just want to be myself and I want you to love me for who I am.
elpollodiablo
Registered user

Posts: 32624


« Reply #504 on: Mar 19, 2008, 01:09:14 PM »

meanwhile conservatives cackle at the mounting division among democrats and plan to continue voting for Hillary in primaries like they did in Ohio and Texas.



well good for y'all.  but when it's McCain versus HRC or Obama in the debates, and Americans see that McCain is, mentally, a shell of his former self (you did see his speech yesterday, right?), we'll see who's laughing.

Let's be real for a moment: McCain has no fucking chance. He's riding the coattails of a president whose approval ratings have been abysmally low for two years now. His party is seen as having directly contributed to the major economic fuckups that are now becoming manifest. Perhaps most damningly, he thinks the war in Iraq should continue indefinitely, while about 2/3 of the nation wants out at the earliest possible opportunity. What was that he said recently? "I disagree with the American people when it comes to Iraq." (paraphrased, I cannot find the exact quote and kudos to someone who can). Who is he holding out for? Is it just that he can't afford to be seen backpedaling at this point? Who, in their campaign for the White House, as much as says "The American people are wrong; I'm going to do what's right." With that sort of stunning political savvy, I don't think we have much to worry about as far as the Republican party goes. The general is ours to lose, and the sooner the nomination gets wrapped up, the better. We're gonna fucking trounce em.
Logged

think 'on the road.'
Andrew_TSKS
Registered user

Posts: 39426


« Reply #505 on: Mar 19, 2008, 01:11:07 PM »

hah, yesterday mccain said during a press conference that iran was training al qaeda members, and that this was common knowledge. this was such a gigantic fuckup that joe lieberman actually stopped him in mid-speech and made him correct himself.

source
Logged

I just want to be myself and I want you to love me for who I am.
Thermofusion
Registered user

Posts: 10000


« Reply #506 on: Mar 19, 2008, 01:15:32 PM »

There's a healthy amount of willful ignorance among supporters of both camps.  On the Obama side, it's the people who choose not to question the substance behind Obama's message and on the Clinton side, it's the people who choose to ignore the unfortunate nature of her campaign tactics and her history of pandering to corporate America. 
Logged

triple paisley minimum
elpollodiablo
Registered user

Posts: 32624


« Reply #507 on: Mar 19, 2008, 01:16:10 PM »

first of all, i appreciate that you took the time to say all that, and while to some extent i feel like it's the same as hating a band because of their fans, you also have a valid point--obama shouldn't be given a free pass. i don't know if there's any instance where you feel like i in particular have let him slide over something he should have been taken to task about, and if so, i'd be glad to discuss it. hell, maybe i was wrong. but on the matter of this particular speech, i really do think he did the right thing.

first and foremost, he didn't throw wright under the bus. i actually would have respected that a lot less than i respect the stance he took. sticking with the guy, saying he disagrees with what he said but loves the man, may not be enough for some people, but i don't think those people will be voting democrat in november no matter who gets the nomination. i'm sure you know what i mean on that one. but really, i think it's a principled stand, for him to refuse to deny his connection with the guy even as he distances himself from the substance of the guy's remarks. the things he said about how all of us have someone in our family like this resonates with me, especially since that's MOST of my family for me. and i like that he used it as an opportunity to discuss the racial issues that exist in this country, and in the course of doing so, was sympathetic to the problems that both the black and white working class communities face, and understanding about how these problems could send both groups towards race-based fears and angers.

in fact, the best part for me is that in the end, he brought it around to the fact that rich people and corporations are to blame for the problems working class people of every color face, something i believe deep in my heart to be true. he soft-pedaled it, because you have to to get such a message past the mainstream's kneejerk reactions, but he's fucking right. and i do worry that being this forthright will lose the guy the election, but i respect him for saying this stuff instead of doing the "how much ass should i kiss? how many people must i throw under the bus to keep as many votes as possible?" dance that most politicians make a matter of course. the guy showed that he has a point beyond which he won't go to get votes, and i respect that. i'd really rather him lose the election because of that than be willing to throw over any supporter and any position he has to in order to get into office. because if he was willing to do the latter, i wouldn't trust him to get anything done once he got there.

EDIT: oops, there i go discussing the speech after all.

After actually seeing the speech as opposed to just reading it, I was quite impressed. The Israel thing still stuck in my craw because it seemed so irrelevant, just a way to give a quick THUMBS UP to Olmert on the sly. That being said, I was struck by his honest and conviction. He talked about the divisiveness of affirmative action, for god's sake. When's the last time you saw a Dem walk willingly into that snake pit?
I also felt that he was really trying to give a definitive stance and shelve the issue in the interest of moving the focus of this campaign back to policy, which is honorable considering that he's obviously got a lot more eloquent insight on this issue than HC or (LOL) John McCain, and he could probably beat on both of them with this and shore up all the minority votes he could ever ask for. But, as you said, he is a dude of character, it would seem.
One other thing to be thankful for: they kept the raucous multitudes out of this speech, so you could evaluate him on his own without chanting, screaming, fainting groupies in the audience. It seemed much more personal than any other speech I've seen him give, and it definitely advanced my perception of him considerably.
Logged

think 'on the road.'
elpollodiablo
Registered user

Posts: 32624


« Reply #508 on: Mar 19, 2008, 01:20:06 PM »

There's a healthy amount of willful ignorance among supporters of both camps.  On the Obama side, it's the people who choose not to question the substance behind Obama's message and on the Clinton side, it's the people who choose to ignore the unfortunate nature of her campaign tactics and her history of pandering to corporate America. 

While I'm sure Dave will be by momentarily to tell you to shut your filthy fucking mouth w/r/t the first point, I'll cop to being guilty of the second. I defended her campaign much longer than I should have, and it makes me cringe to think of it now. There are some mitigating factors, I feel, like having a really venal, unconscionable staff (and whose fault is that, exactly), and the way the media beat on her for months while giving Obama a walk, but in the end she did some shitty things while backed into that corner.
Logged

think 'on the road.'
dieblucasdie
Registered user

Posts: 24493


« Reply #509 on: Mar 19, 2008, 01:20:49 PM »

Yeah, the "the Democrats are dividing the party by having such a long primary" thing is simply not true, if you look at the polls or if you look at historical precedent.  It's something the media likes to blather about when they a horserace story and no one's put out a new attack ad.  

If anything, I'd rather have Obama a little more battle-tested before taking on McCain in earnest.  Sure, it gives McCain time to try and shore up conservative support, but dude can't do that effectively when the Dem primary eats up all the news coverage.  As for the "Republicans will go vote for Clinton" thing:  A)  Let them vote; no matter what happens Obama is finishing with the pledged delegate lead, B)  It's another overblown story, the number of Republicans who have/will do that is just not that large.
Logged

he was basically your only chance at making the world love you.
elpollodiablo
Registered user

Posts: 32624


« Reply #510 on: Mar 19, 2008, 01:39:42 PM »

  If anything, I'd rather have Obama a little more battle-tested before taking on McCain in earnest.  Sure, it gives McCain time to try and shore up conservative support, but dude can't do that effectively when the Dem primary eats up all the news coverage.  As for the "Republicans will go vote for Clinton" thing:  A)  Let them vote; no matter what happens Obama is finishing with the pledged delegate lead, B)  It's another overblown story, the number of Republicans who have/will do that is just not that large.

Exactly. Anyway in Ohio, Freddy, we have closed primaries, so any elephants wanting to cross party lines would've had to register as Democrats. Considering how hard it is just getting people to vote, period, I don't think too many were going to go to those lengths.

Also yeah HC cannot win at this point without some shady dealins, is the main reason I think she should pack it in.
Logged

think 'on the road.'
Thermofusion
Registered user

Posts: 10000


« Reply #511 on: Mar 19, 2008, 01:40:09 PM »

There's a healthy amount of willful ignorance among supporters of both camps.  On the Obama side, it's the people who choose not to question the substance behind Obama's message and on the Clinton side, it's the people who choose to ignore the unfortunate nature of her campaign tactics and her history of pandering to corporate America. 

While I'm sure Dave will be by momentarily to tell you to shut your filthy fucking mouth w/r/t the first point, I'll cop to being guilty of the second. I defended her campaign much longer than I should have, and it makes me cringe to think of it now. There are some mitigating factors, I feel, like having a really venal, unconscionable staff (and whose fault is that, exactly), and the way the media beat on her for months while giving Obama a walk, but in the end she did some shitty things while backed into that corner.

Is this the campaign confessional booth?  I'll also cop to something: I drank the Obama-Aid (primarily tropical punch flavor) for months before questioning whether it was naturally or artificially flavored.  I think it's both, and I'm still an Obama supporter troo an' troo, as Thomas Wolfe might say, but I contend that self-pinching is a necessary step that a lot of Obama and Clinton supporters seem unwilling to take.  I'm cool if someone votes for a candidate I don't like or agree with, but I can't respect their vote if they don't put some critical thinking skills into it.  I mean, fuck, most of us graduated elementary school, so there's no reason why members of the Obazbollah or the Klinton Klux Klan shouldn't be able to draft a simple venn diagram.
Logged

triple paisley minimum
dieblucasdie
Registered user

Posts: 24493


« Reply #512 on: Mar 19, 2008, 01:44:52 PM »

Don't worry, no matter who becomes president I'm going to be bitching about his or her every failure.
Logged

he was basically your only chance at making the world love you.
slow west vultures
Registered user

Posts: 2326


« Reply #513 on: Mar 19, 2008, 01:57:22 PM »

meanwhile conservatives cackle at the mounting division among democrats and plan to continue voting for Hillary in primaries like they did in Ohio and Texas.



well good for y'all.  but when it's McCain versus HRC or Obama in the debates, and Americans see that McCain is, mentally, a shell of his former self (you did see his speech yesterday, right?), we'll see who's laughing.

Let's be real for a moment: McCain has no fucking chance. He's riding the coattails of a president whose approval ratings have been abysmally low for two years now. His party is seen as having directly contributed to the major economic fuckups that are now becoming manifest. Perhaps most damningly, he thinks the war in Iraq should continue indefinitely, while about 2/3 of the nation wants out at the earliest possible opportunity. What was that he said recently? "I disagree with the American people when it comes to Iraq." (paraphrased, I cannot find the exact quote and kudos to someone who can). Who is he holding out for? Is it just that he can't afford to be seen backpedaling at this point? Who, in their campaign for the White House, as much as says "The American people are wrong; I'm going to do what's right."

Barry Goldwater?  mccain was once quoted in our paper as saying Arizona is the one state where when a child asks their mom "Mom can i be President some day?"  the mom has to say "ummm, probably not" 
Logged

Ocean in view! O! The joy!
DCDave
Registered user

Posts: 10387


« Reply #514 on: Mar 19, 2008, 02:11:03 PM »

"[Y]ou can't hold the candidate responsible for everything that people around him may say or do. It's interesting to me that there are some people on the left who are having to be very uncomfortable with what ... Wright said, when they all were all over a Jerry Falwell, or anyone on the right who said things that they found very awkward and uncomfortable, years ago. Many times those were statements lifted out of the context of a larger sermon. Sermons, after all, are rarely written word for word by pastors like Rev. Wright, who are delivering them extemporaneously, and caught up in the emotion of the moment. There are things that sometimes get said, that if you put them on paper and looked at them in print, you'd say 'Well, I didn't mean to say it quite like that...

As easy as it is for those of us who are white to look back and say 'That's a terrible statement!' ... I grew up in a very segregated South. And I think that you have to cut some slack and I'm gonna be probably the only conservative in America who's gonna say something like this, but I'm just tellin' you we've gotta cut some slack to people who grew up being called names..."

Guess who said that.
Logged

But what the fuck do I know, I have a penis.
elpollodiablo
Registered user

Posts: 32624


« Reply #515 on: Mar 19, 2008, 02:21:26 PM »

Wow. Good for the Huckster, being human!
Logged

think 'on the road.'
Andrew_TSKS
Registered user

Posts: 39426


« Reply #516 on: Mar 19, 2008, 02:24:16 PM »

After actually seeing the speech as opposed to just reading it, I was quite impressed. The Israel thing still stuck in my craw because it seemed so irrelevant, just a way to give a quick THUMBS UP to Olmert on the sly. That being said, I was struck by his honest and conviction. He talked about the divisiveness of affirmative action, for god's sake. When's the last time you saw a Dem walk willingly into that snake pit?
I also felt that he was really trying to give a definitive stance and shelve the issue in the interest of moving the focus of this campaign back to policy, which is honorable considering that he's obviously got a lot more eloquent insight on this issue than HC or (LOL) John McCain, and he could probably beat on both of them with this and shore up all the minority votes he could ever ask for. But, as you said, he is a dude of character, it would seem.
One other thing to be thankful for: they kept the raucous multitudes out of this speech, so you could evaluate him on his own without chanting, screaming, fainting groupies in the audience. It seemed much more personal than any other speech I've seen him give, and it definitely advanced my perception of him considerably.

well, i'll be damned: WE ARE IN AGREEMENT. i too was a bit thrown by the israel thing, but have been of the opinion for a while that a move away from wholehearted support of israel is just too non-mainstream left for me to see it out of any politician with a prayer of getting elected. at least, at this point it is. maybe in 20 more years.
Logged

I just want to be myself and I want you to love me for who I am.
Andrew_TSKS
Registered user

Posts: 39426


« Reply #517 on: Mar 19, 2008, 02:28:31 PM »

I'm cool if someone votes for a candidate I don't like or agree with, but I can't respect their vote if they don't put some critical thinking skills into it.

agreed. and...

Don't worry, no matter who becomes president I'm going to be bitching about his or her every failure.

agreed.

also, props to huckabee. one thing i've always felt about that guy--he's sincere. and that's a remarkably sincere thing for him to say. now, were he president, i'm sure i would have hated his sincerely whackjob policies, but since it's definitely not going to happen at this point, i'm feeling charitable.
Logged

I just want to be myself and I want you to love me for who I am.
dieblucasdie
Registered user

Posts: 24493


« Reply #518 on: Mar 19, 2008, 02:30:56 PM »

Well, he could still be president...  McCain be old.
Logged

he was basically your only chance at making the world love you.
elpollodiablo
Registered user

Posts: 32624


« Reply #519 on: Mar 19, 2008, 02:32:42 PM »

You think he'll ticket up with Huckabee?
Logged

think 'on the road.'
dieblucasdie
Registered user

Posts: 24493


« Reply #520 on: Mar 19, 2008, 02:34:17 PM »

I think odds are about even.  Depends whether he places more importance on bringing back far right support or pandering to swing voters.
Logged

he was basically your only chance at making the world love you.
Andrew_TSKS
Registered user

Posts: 39426


« Reply #521 on: Mar 19, 2008, 02:35:43 PM »

i agree with blucas, actually, i've seen that coming since south carolina or so.
Logged

I just want to be myself and I want you to love me for who I am.
FreddyKnuckles
Registered user

Posts: 11705


« Reply #522 on: Mar 19, 2008, 04:02:42 PM »

  If anything, I'd rather have Obama a little more battle-tested before taking on McCain in earnest.  Sure, it gives McCain time to try and shore up conservative support, but dude can't do that effectively when the Dem primary eats up all the news coverage.  As for the "Republicans will go vote for Clinton" thing:  A)  Let them vote; no matter what happens Obama is finishing with the pledged delegate lead, B)  It's another overblown story, the number of Republicans who have/will do that is just not that large.

Exactly. Anyway in Ohio, Freddy, we have closed primaries, so any elephants wanting to cross party lines would've had to register as Democrats. Considering how hard it is just getting people to vote, period, I don't think too many were going to go to those lengths.

Also yeah HC cannot win at this point without some shady dealins, is the main reason I think she should pack it in.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/03/17/many_voting_for_clinton_to_boost_gop/
Logged

Quote from: Heathcote
I'm in with Greg Nog, IT'S FUCKING FAFFLE TIME!
elpollodiablo
Registered user

Posts: 32624


« Reply #523 on: Mar 19, 2008, 04:05:48 PM »

Holy fuck, shows me. It's hard to believe 100,000 people would register as Democrats out of spite.
Logged

think 'on the road.'
dieblucasdie
Registered user

Posts: 24493


« Reply #524 on: Mar 19, 2008, 04:07:49 PM »

Even if a half million Republicans go vote for her in PA it won't change the outcome.
Logged

he was basically your only chance at making the world love you.
Pages: 1 ... 16 17 18 19 20 [21] 22
Print
LPTJ | Archives | The Hangar | Topic: Super Tuesday 2! Election primary 08
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines
Board layout based on the Oxygen design by Bloc