*
*
Home
Help
Search
Login
Register
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Sep 01, 2014, 02:44:11 PM

Login with username, password and session length
Search: Advanced search
657934 Posts in 9260 Topics by 3396 Members Latest Member: - vlozan86 Most online today: 79 - most online ever: 494 (Jul 01, 2007, 02:59:53 PM)
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7
Print
Author Topic: Emo is sexist  (Read 26195 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Charming Tedious
Registered user

Posts: 731


« on: Jan 24, 2005, 09:28:02 PM »

Do we all agree about this?

references:
*Julianne Shepherd
*That Jessica Hopper article in the Da Capo book.
*please add to this list
Logged
martin_van_buren
Registered user

Posts: 2062


« Reply #1 on: Jan 24, 2005, 09:35:34 PM »

What's wrong with being sexy?
Logged
JamesSchneider
Registered user

Posts: 1689


« Reply #2 on: Jan 24, 2005, 09:44:16 PM »

Quote from: "martin_van_buren"
What's wrong with being sexy?



Thats my favorite thing anyone has said on these forums more or less.


But honestly, replace Emo with any other genre name and the argument is the same, and its an argument by which I'm not particularly convinced.
Logged

Couldn't you take the second bus home?
Andrew_TSKS
Registered user

Posts: 39426


« Reply #3 on: Jan 24, 2005, 10:35:03 PM »

i really like emo, and i don't think it's sexist at all. i think the main issue is just with the fact that bands are mostly made up of heterosexual males. but that's true of ALL independent/underground rock music. i know some of you will now use that statement as a springboard for a lengthy discourse on the superiority of r&b/dance music, but like... i just don't like how that stuff sounds as much as i like indie rock/emo/hardcore/metal, so in the end that argument doesn't work for me either.
Logged

I just want to be myself and I want you to love me for who I am.
Matos_W.K.
Registered user

Posts: 9129


« Reply #4 on: Jan 24, 2005, 10:39:37 PM »

I don't see how what Julianne wrote amounts to "emo is sexist," though. I think it's more along the lines of "the marketplace is sexist" or "journalism is sexist."
Logged

There is nothing wrong with sentimentality, provided itís genuine.
hoppock
Registered user

Posts: 14


« Reply #5 on: Jan 24, 2005, 11:05:48 PM »

yes, it seems that mirah and conor have been marketed differently (seemingly by choice on both parts)...and that might make up for part of the divergence in credit given to them...i would take mirah's music any day.  she certainly has the "real" Thing going for here, where i don't always feel that conor's music feels "real"...she also has mastery over the range of emotions and topics and styles...and it seems that conor is stuck to one or two of each (although i haven't heard the two new albums yet, so they might prove me to be an idiot).

anyway, pop music/rock music is sexist.  we need to work to change that.  
emo is a very male-oriented genre (just judging by the numbef of male emo artists and the marketing signals that i have received)...which probably keeps people like mirah from marketing themselves as "emo" (she's way cooler than emo, any effing day of the week).  it's funny how emotional female singers are not emo, they're just typical female singers...and emotional male singers are "emo"...does this express a willingness to maintain the notion that dudes aren't  typically emotional? ...and thus when they write super emotional songs, they are "emo", whereas the same song from a woman (shannon wright, edith frost, etc.) isn't emo at all?

just some thoughts.

anyway
Logged

my name is matthew
martin_van_buren
Registered user

Posts: 2062


« Reply #6 on: Jan 24, 2005, 11:10:54 PM »

Perhaps its because only girls listen to emo and girls don't like other girls but instead like boys who look like girls.

Keep in mind I have absolutely no idea what we're talking about.
Logged
milly balgeary
Registered user

Posts: 11512


« Reply #7 on: Jan 24, 2005, 11:45:36 PM »

we should all worry about global warming!
Logged

elpollodiablo
Registered user

Posts: 32624


« Reply #8 on: Jan 25, 2005, 12:29:38 AM »

Yes! Emo is sexist! It also leads to tooth decay and general social awkwardness when confronting anyone not of your character archetype! And it makes you sterile! And zits, bit, fat, pustulating lesion-like zits, all over your body!
Logged

think 'on the road.'
Andrew_TSKS
Registered user

Posts: 39426


« Reply #9 on: Jan 25, 2005, 12:45:29 AM »

martin, not to screw up your point completely, but i listen to emo, and i'm not a girl.

also, when we talk about emo... i don't think about bright eyes. i think about taking back sunday, or the promise ring, or lifetime.
Logged

I just want to be myself and I want you to love me for who I am.
Charming Tedious
Registered user

Posts: 731


« Reply #10 on: Jan 25, 2005, 01:35:02 AM »

Seriously, don't you guys think that in terms of the gender & relationship dynamics it models, emo is uniquely & homogenously crummy and unhealthy?  which is to say, didn't anyone read Jessica Hopper's piece and agree with it?
Logged
mackro
Registered user

Posts: 8658


« Reply #11 on: Jan 25, 2005, 03:57:19 AM »

Hey, I'm PROUD of my copy of  E=MO^2!  He's never really told any sexist jokes either!  A lot of self deprecating ones.  "I'm a great lover.. I bet."



(CT, a link to the Hopper piece might help)
Logged

i'm not sexiest yet know know
mackro
Registered user

Posts: 8658


« Reply #12 on: Jan 25, 2005, 04:01:29 AM »

"I grew up in Chicago... but when I was 10, my parents moved to Downer's Grove."

"..when I was 12, I finally found them."
Logged

i'm not sexiest yet know know
Charming Tedious
Registered user

Posts: 731


« Reply #13 on: Jan 25, 2005, 05:39:33 AM »

Quote from: "mackro"

(CT, a link to the Hopper piece might help)


Alas it's no longer online.  Here's the full text.

Emo: Where the Girls Aren't by Jessica Hopper from Punk Planet 56

A few months back, I was at a Strike Anywhere show. The band launched into ,AeuRefusal,Aeu; a song offering solidarity with the feminist movement and bearing witness to the inherent struggle in women,Aeos lives. It is not a song of protection; there is no romantic undertow. It,Aeos a song about all people being equally important. Everyone was dancing, fanboys and girls at the lip of the stage screaming along,Aeilike so many shows at the Fireside. By the first chorus of the song, I was in tears. I have often been so moved to shed small wet tears at Strike shows, but this time was for AN entirely different reason,AeiA mournful new awareness: I am here, at the Fireside Bowl probably 75 times a year for the last five years. The numbers of times I have genuinely felt, or even sensed my reality or the reality of the women I know portrayed in a song sung by male-fronted band,Aei that number was at zero and holding. The ratio of songs/shows/expressed sentiment-to-affirmation of feminist struggle/girldom is staggering. This song was the first.

No wonder most of my girlfriends and I have being growing increasingly alienated and distanced from our varying scenes, or have begun taking shelter from emo,Aeos pervasive stronghold in the cave-like recesses of electronic, DJ or experimental music. No wonder girls I know are feeling dismissive and faithless towards music. No wonder I feel much more internal allegiance to MOP songs, as their tales of hood drama and jewelry theft FEELS far less offensive than yet another song from yet another all dude band giving us the 411 on his personal romantic holocaust. Because in 2003, as it stands, I simply cannot conjure the effort it takes to give a flying fuck about bands of boys yoked to their own wounding AKA the genre/plague that we know as E-M-O. Songs and scenes populated with myopic worldviews that do not extend beyond their velvet-lined rebel-trauma, their bodies, or their vans. Meanwhile, we,Aeore left wondering how did we get here?

As hardcore and political punk,Aeos charged sentiments became more clich/(c) towards the end of the ,Aeo80s,Aeias we all soon settled in to the armchair comfort of the Clinton era,AeiPunk began stripping off its tuff skin and getting down to its squishy pulp heart. Forget bombs and the real impact of trickle down economics, it,Aeos all about elusive kisses and tender-yet-undeniably-masculine emotional outbursts. Mixtapes across America became soiled with torrential anthems of hopeful boy hearts masted to sleeves, pillows soaked in tears, and relational eulogies. Romance of the self was on.

I think somewhere right around the release of the last Braid record, is where we lost the map. Up until then, things seemed reasonable, encouraging, exciting,Aeithus far we were sold on vulnerability, there was something revivifying in the earnestness. New bands cast their entire micro-careers from bands we all liked: Jawbox, Jawbreaker, Sunny Day Real Estate etc. In those bands, there were songs about women, but they were girls with names, with details to their lives, girls who weren,Aeot exclusively defined by their absence or lensed through romantic-spectre. Jawbox,Aeos most popular song, ,AeuSavory,Aeu was about recognizing male normative privilege, about the weight of sexualization on a woman (,Aeusee you feign surprise / that I,Aeom all eyes,Aeu). In Jawbreaker songs women had leverage, had life, had animus and agency to them. Sometimes they were friends, or a sister, not always girl to be bedded or pursued or dumped by. They were accurate, and touched by reality.

And then something broke,AeiAnd it wasn,Aeot Bob Nanna,Aeos or Mr. Dashboard,Aeos sensitive hearts. Records by a legion of done-wrong boys lined the record store shelves. Every record was a concept album about a breakup, damning the girl on the other side. Emo,Aeos contentious monologue,Aeiit,Aeos balled fist Peter Pan mash-note dilemmas,Aeiit,Aeos album length letters from pussy-jail,Aeiit,Aeos cathedral building in ode to man-pain and Robert-Bly-isms,Aeiit,Aeos woman-induced misery has gone from being descriptive to being prescriptive. Emo was just another forum where women were locked in a stasis of outside observation, observing ourselves through the eyes of others. The prevalence of these bands, the omni-presence of emo,Aeos sweeping sound and it,Aeos growing stronghold in the media and on the Billboard chart codified emo as A SOUND, where previously there had been diversity.

Girls in emo songs today do not have names. We are not identified. Our lives, our struggles, our day-to-day-to-day does not exist, we do not get colored in. We span from coquettish to damned and back again. We leave bruises on boy-hearts, but make no other mark. Our existences, our actions are portrayed SOLELY through the detailing of neurotic self-entanglements of the boy singer,Aeiour region of personal power, simply, is our breadth of impact on his romantic life. We are on a short leash in a filthy yard,Aeiwe are mysteries to be unlocked, bodies to be groped, minimum wage earners of fealty, harvesters of sorrow, repositories for scorn. Vessels redeemed in the light of boy-love. On a pedestal, on our backs. Muses at best. Cum rags or invisible at worst. Check out our pictures on the covers of records,Aeiwe are sad-eyed and winsome and well cleaved ,AeiThank you Hot Rod Circuit, The Crush, Cursive, Something Corporate,Aeithe fantasy girl you could take home and comfort.

It is a genre made by and for adolescent and post adolescent boys, who make evident, in their lyrics and dominant aesthetic that their knowledge of actual living, breathing women is tiny enough to fit in a shoebox. Emo,Aeos characteristic sensitive front is limited to self-sensitivity, it runs in a fanciful maze of reflexive self pity, rife with a vulnerability that is infinitely self-serving. It is a high stakes game of control,Aeiof ,Aeuwinning,Aeu or ,Aeulosing,Aeu possession of the girl (see Dashboard Confessional, Brand New, New Found Glory and Glassjaw albums for prime examples) Yet, in the vulnerability there is no empathy, no peerage or parallelism. Emo,Aeos yearning is not to identify with, or understand, but rather to enforce sexual hierarchy and omit women,Aeos power via romanticide.

As Andy Greenwald notes in his forthcoming book about emo culture Nothing Feels Good: PUNK ROCK, TEENAGERS, AND EMO, lyrically, emo singers ,Aeurevel in their misery and suffering to an almost ecstatic degree, but with a limited use of subtlety and language. It tends to come off like Rimbaud relocated to the Food Court.,Aeu Women in emo songs are denied the dignity of humanization through both the language and narratives, we are omnipresent, but our only consequence is in romantic setting; denying any possibility or hope for life outside the margins, where they express a free sexual, creative or political will.

***

On a dancefloor in Seattle, a boy I know decides to plumb the topic,

,AeuI heard you,Aeore writing a column about how emo is sexist,Aeu

,AeuI am.,Aeu

,AeuWhat do you mean ,Aeuemo is sexist?',Aeu Emo songs are no different than all of rock history, than Rolling Stones or Led Zeppelin.,Aeu

,AeuI know,AeiI,Aeod rather not get into right now.,Aeu

,AeuHow are songs about breaking up sexist though? Everyone breaks up. If you have a problem with emo, you have a problem with all of rock history!,Aeu

,AeuI know. I do.,Aeu

And to paraphrase words of Nixon sidekick HR Haldeman, ,AeuHistory is wack.,Aeu

There must be some discussion, at least for context, about the well-worn narrative of the travails of the boy rebel,Aeos broken heart as exemplified in the last 50 years of blues-based music. There must be some base acknowledgement that in almost every band since the beginning of time, most songs are about loving and losing women. Granted, broken hearts are a part of human existence. Songs about women but not written by women, practically define rock n roll. And as a woman, as a music critic, as someone who lives and dies for music, there is a rift within, a struggle of how much deference you will allow, and how much you will ignore because you like the music.

Can you ignore the lyrical content of the Stones ,AeuUnder my Thumb,Aeu because you like the song? Are you willing to? How much attention can you sacrifice to the cock-prance of Led Zeppelin or cheesy humpa-humpa metaphors of AC/DC or the heaping pile of dead or brutalized women that amasses in Big Black,Aeos discography? Is emo exceptional in the scope of the rock canon in terms of treatment of women or in it,Aeos continual rubbing salute to it,Aeos own trouble-boy clich/(c) image? Is there anything that separates Dashboard Confessional,Aeos condemnation of his bedhopping betrayer and makes it any more damning than any woman/mother/whore/ex-girlfriend showing up in songs of Jane,Aeos Addiction, Nick Cave, The Animals or Justin Timberlake? Can you compartmentalize and not judge the woe towards women readily exemplified in most of the recorded catalog of Zeppelin because the first eight bars of ,AeuCommunication Breakdown,Aeu is, as the parlance goes, total fucking godhead? Where do you split? Do you bother to even care, because if yr going to try and kick against it, you, as my dancing friend says ,Aeuhave a problem with all of rock history.,Aeu, and because who, other than a petty, too serious bitch dismisses Zeppelin?! Do you accept the circumstances and phallocentiricites of the last 50+ years of music, as it exists in popular culture and in your ,Aeupunk rock community,Aeu as simply how it is?

Who do you excuse and why? Do you check your personality and your politics at the door and just dance or just rock or just let side A spin out? Can you ignore the marginalization of lady-lives that line your record shelves, and give yrself where you can to where you identify, bridging the sometimes massive gulf, because it,Aeos either that or purge yr collection of everything but wordless free jazz / German micro house 12,Aeus and/or Mr. Lady Records releases.

It is almost too big of a question to ask. I start to ask this of myself, to really start investigating, and stop, realizing full well that if I get an answer I may just have to retire to an adobe hut on some Italian mountainside and not take any visitors for a long time. Or turn into the rock critical Andrea Dworkin, and report with ruthless resignation that all male-manufactured music is in service of the continual oppression and domination of women. Sometimes I feel like every rock song I hear is a sexualized sucker punch towards us. And I feel like no one takes the breadth of that impact seriously, or even notices it most days.

My deepest concerns about the punishing effects of the emo-tidal-wave is not so much for myself or for my immediate-peer lady friends who can fend and snarl from the safety of our personal-political platforms and deep crated record collections, but rather, for the girls I see crowding front and center for the eem shows. The ones who are young, for whom this is likely their inaugural introduction to the underground, who,Aeos gateway may have been through Weezer or the Vagrant America tour or maybe Dashboard Confessional,Aeos Unplugged sesh on the MTV. The ones who are seeking music out, who are wanting to stake some claim to punk rock, or an underground avenue, for a way out, a way under, to sate the seemingly unquenchable, nameless need,Aeithe same need I know I came to punk rock with. It becomes a very particular concern because Emo is the province of the young, their foundation is fresh-laid, my concern is for people who have no other previous acquaintance with the underground aside from the shadowy doom and octave chords that the Vagrant Records roster hath wrought.

When I was that age, I too had a rabid hunger for a music that spoke a language I was just starting to decipher, music that affirmed my faith, my ninth grade fuck you values, and encouraged me to not allow my budding feminist ways to be bludgeoned by all the soul crushing weight of mainstream culture,AeiI was lucky I was met at the door with things like the Bikini Kill demo, or Fugazi or the first Kill Rock Stars comp, or Babes in Toyland shows. I was met with polemics and respectful address. I was met with girl heroes in guitar squall, kicking out the jams under the stage lights. I was being hurtled towards deeper rewards, records and bands were triggering ideas and wrenching open doors of interminable hope and inspiration. I acknowledge the importance of all of that because I know I would not be who I am now, doing what I do, 12 years down the line, if I had not had gotten those fundamentals, been presented with those ideas about what music, or moreover, what life can be about.

And so I watch these girls at emo shows more than I ever do the band. I watch them sing along, see what parts they freak out over. I wonder if this does it for them, if seeing these bands, these dudes on stage resonates and inspires them to want to pick up a guitar or drum sticks. Or if they just see this as something dudes do, because there are no girls, there is no them up there. I wonder if they are being thwarted by the FACT that there is no presentation of girls as participants, but rather, only as consumers,Aeior if we reference the songs directly,Aeithe consumed. I wonder if this is where music will begin and end for them. If they can be radicalized in spite of this. If being denied keys to the clubhouse or airtime will spur them into action.

I know that, for me, as an auto-didactic teenaged bitch, who thought her every idea was a good idea worthy of expression and audience, it did not truly occur to me to start a band until I saw other women playing music (Babes in Toyland, early 1990). Up until then,Aeiseeing Bloodline chugga-chugga it up 97 times on local hardcore bills had not done it for me. Dinosaur Jr,Aeos hairwaving and soloing had not done it for me. The dozens of bands, bands who,Aeos records I knew all the words to, who were comprised of 25-30 year old dudes, with nothing much to say, did not feel like punk rock with it,Aeos arms open wide to me. It took seeing Bikini Kill in an illegal basement venue to truly throw the lights, to show me that there was more than one place, one role, for women to occupy, and that our participation was important and vital,AeiIt was YOU MATTER writ large.

I don,Aeot want these front row girls to miss that. I don,Aeot want girls leaving clubs denied of encouragement and potential, quietly vexed and clad in the burka of emo,Aeos male dominance. Because as fucking lame as punk rock can be, as hollow as all of our self serving claims ring,Aeithat punk rock,Aeos culture is something TRULY DIFFERENT (sic) than median society,Aeiat it,Aeos gnarled foundations still exists the possibilities for connection, for exposure to radical notions, for punk rock to match up to the elaborate idea of what many kids dream, or hope for it to mean,Aeifor all of that to absolutely and totally exist ,AeiI believe,Aeimuch of that hinges on the continual presence of radicalized women within the leagues, and those women being encouraged, given reasons to stay, to want to belong,Aeirather than punished or diminished by the music which glues the various fractious communities together.

Us girls deserve more than one song. We deserve more than one pledge of solidarity. We deserve better songs than any boy will ever write about us.
Logged
John
edit0r
Registered user

Posts: 10925


« Reply #14 on: Jan 25, 2005, 08:01:26 AM »

Western culture is sexist; emo is part of western culture. That's all. Rock music is sexist, hip-hop is outright misogynist, country music has refined essentialism to an art. Mirah's openly lesbian and travels with a fabulously butch girlfriend; Conor's a very cute 24-year-old boy. You can't even convince Americans that gay people have the right to love one another. How you gonna sell 'em on Mirah?
Logged
Marie
Registered user

Posts: 859


« Reply #15 on: Jan 25, 2005, 09:42:21 AM »

Wait, which emo are we talking about?  Moss Icon or Dashboard?
Logged

In the winter I am a buddhist, in the summer I am a nudist!
Charming Tedious
Registered user

Posts: 731


« Reply #16 on: Jan 25, 2005, 10:08:47 AM »

How do you sell 'em on Mirah?  Well the obvious answer is, you play her records for them.

Or you show them this adorable picture.  

I think, John, that Jessica addresses the "but everything is sexist" counterargument towards the end there, and I think she's working out the feeling that "this is our turf so this is a good place to start"...that the progress made by riot grrrl is at risk of being lost if we don't start talking about it, and focusing on young girls who go to rock shows is a good place to start this dialogue.  

In hiphop & country, there are at least strong women who fire back when challenged and are successful, have been for a while, from salt'n'pepa to missy elliott, loretta lynn to dixie chicks.  Emo doesn't have that.
Logged
Andrew_TSKS
Registered user

Posts: 39426


« Reply #17 on: Jan 25, 2005, 10:20:01 AM »

Quote from: "Charming Tedious"
Seriously, don't you guys think that in terms of the gender & relationship dynamics it models, emo is uniquely & homogenously crummy and unhealthy?  which is to say, didn't anyone read Jessica Hopper's piece and agree with it?


no.
Logged

I just want to be myself and I want you to love me for who I am.
Charming Tedious
Registered user

Posts: 731


« Reply #18 on: Jan 25, 2005, 10:30:06 AM »

Quote from: "Andrew_TSKS"
Quote from: "Charming Tedious"
Seriously, don't you guys think that in terms of the gender & relationship dynamics it models, emo is uniquely & homogenously crummy and unhealthy?  which is to say, didn't anyone read Jessica Hopper's piece and agree with it?


no.


Okay, but I want you back it up.  Show me an example of something in that genre that affirms women and speaks to their experience, or models healthy relationship dynamics.

The best I can think of is Rainer Maria, and they speak mainly to a much older audience who can decipher all the big words.
Logged
Andrew_TSKS
Registered user

Posts: 39426


« Reply #19 on: Jan 25, 2005, 10:38:00 AM »

also, marie, dashboard as opposed to moss icon, yes.

and let me just go ahead and say a little more than that i don't agree with ms. hopper. this is going to be a disorganized rant, though, so consider yourselves warned.

there's a lot about that article that strikes me as coming from a viewpoint of unconscious sexism of her own. it seems like, for a lot of rabid feminists i've encountered over the years in hardcore/underground music, there is no concept of personal responsibility. if men are most of the band members (if not all), this is men's fault. if men write songs about their broken hearts and women feel like they are only being represented as objects in the songs, this probably comes down to the fact that men are writing the songs (specifically heterosexual men), and therefore expressing their own personal viewpoint--which, once you depart from the realm of political songs, is pretty much all they CAN express. this again is men's fault. jessica hopper talks in her essay about how, until she saw OTHER WOMEN playing music, she didn't realize that she herself COULD. this kind of thought process seems ridiculous to me, but maybe that's because of the internal sexism of our society. maybe women are socialized in some way that causes them to only think of themselves as being able to do what they already see other women doing. but if that's the cage women, and specifically women in the underground music scene, are in... what can men do to change or solve that problem? should men stop writing songs about relationships completely, just to make women feel comfortable? if you ask me, the answer is no. the answer, to me, is that women need to take responsibility for putting themselves on the stage. if there were bands with partially or completely female lineups who played in the emo scene, and they were just as good as their male counterparts, they'd get just as much attention. and the likelihood is that their lyrics would objectify men, because they'd be writing from the other side of the relationships. and hey, now that i think of it... who's to say that women who listen to and relate to the songs of dashboard confessional or whoever aren't just applying their lyrics to a female perspective? sure, maybe it's less likely for a woman to find hair from an ex on their pillow, since men tend to have much shorter hair, but isn't it possible that when they listen to emo songs and sing along with the words, that they are putting themselves into the songs as protagonists, rather than seeing the songs as a boy looking at them? i'd actually think that's far more likely than what jessica hopper seems to think is going on.

so yeah, in the end, i disagree with her entire premise. i actually think she's chasing a far more valid point when she mentions the rolling stones song "under my thumb" than anything in her article involving emo. and on that note, maybe she should turn her attention instead to a place in the modern underground where sexism really IS getting a lot of airtime--metalcore, where it's so common as to be played out to hear a band singing about murdering women that they were formerly in love with. you want to talk about unhealthy? THAT's unhealthy. emo is no big deal.
Logged

I just want to be myself and I want you to love me for who I am.
Michael
Registered user

Posts: 369


« Reply #20 on: Jan 25, 2005, 10:39:16 AM »

Quote from: "John"
Conor's a very cute 24-year-old boy.


Is he? He was just on the cover of Time Out NY and he looked like if the neighbor on the Jeffersons went on Atkins.
Logged

Are you here to get pumped?
Andrew_TSKS
Registered user

Posts: 39426


« Reply #21 on: Jan 25, 2005, 10:44:22 AM »

Quote from: "Charming Tedious"
Quote from: "Andrew_TSKS"
Quote from: "Charming Tedious"
Seriously, don't you guys think that in terms of the gender & relationship dynamics it models, emo is uniquely & homogenously crummy and unhealthy?  which is to say, didn't anyone read Jessica Hopper's piece and agree with it?


no.


Okay, but I want you back it up.  Show me an example of something in that genre that affirms women and speaks to their experience, or models healthy relationship dynamics.

The best I can think of is Rainer Maria, and they speak mainly to a much older audience who can decipher all the big words.


ok, i didn't see this post until after i wrote the post below it... but i think i sort of answered what you're asking in that post. let me reiterate, though: it's not the responsibility of the emo scene in general, or men involved in that scene in particular, to provide women with female-centered musical acts in order to make them feel comfortable. in fact, i challenge the entire idea that a woman needs to hear a woman singing lyrics to be able to relate to said lyrics. a number of my close female friends relate very heavily to bright eyes songs, for an example. those songs might be about a boy's perspective, but the women i know who relate to them place themselves in the mindset of the protagonist, and just switch the genders mentioned in the lyrics in their head. and what's wrong with that? i think that's normal and healthy, and in fact when i relate to songs sung by women, i know i do that in MY head...

in the end, if women feel the need for more female participation in emo music, then they should create it themselves. there's no reason for them to feel like they can't do it until another girl does it (like how everyone stands around during the first few songs at a high school dance, no one wanting to be the first one to go out on the floor)--if they want it to be there, they are responsible for creating it. and if they DON'T create it, what does THAT say about hopper's premise? could it be that she's in the vast minority of women, with her concerns? and if she is, then does that mean that the only reason such a thought process is getting such heavy airplay is due to male guilt?
Logged

I just want to be myself and I want you to love me for who I am.
lucky strike
Registered user

Posts: 3220


« Reply #22 on: Jan 25, 2005, 11:07:26 AM »

all i wanna do is smke weed, take bars, fuck bitches, bang screw, spit rhymes, give blood, and slang rocks, fool
fa real
Logged

LISTEN TO ME YOU SON OF A BITCH IM A DETECTIVE GOD DAMN IT
Lalitree
Administrator
Registered user

Posts: 1661


« Reply #23 on: Jan 25, 2005, 11:32:07 AM »

Quote from: "Andrew_TSKS"
it's not the responsibility of the emo scene in general, or men involved in that scene in particular, to provide women with female-centered musical acts in order to make them feel comfortable. [...] in the end, if women feel the need for more female participation in emo music, then they should create it themselves.


I think you need to back up a bit though--in fact we can go round and round debating what the core problem is, but I think it's way deeper than "then girls should make more emo music". It seems to me it's more likely an issue of traditional gender roles (for BOTH sexes) that are put into place far before anyone even knows what 'emo' even is. Some people are able to buck this trend, but that doesn't mean it's not present.

Certainly "girls should make more music" could be a way to fix it, but to me it doesn't really address why there's a disparity in the first place.

I also think that part of it could be that it's just the way the genre evolved--as a male form that women often enjoy listening to, but that not a lot of women really wanted to make. Also it seems to me that there's a difference in how male- and female-made music is perceived vis-a-vis its 'genre'--perhaps the female form of emo is just labelled as 'indie rock'? I dunno, it seems possible.
Logged
Andrew_TSKS
Registered user

Posts: 39426


« Reply #24 on: Jan 25, 2005, 11:58:27 AM »

yeah, i think you've got a very good point about women's versions of this stuff being labeled indie rock, but also, when women play music with this type of lyrical content, it usually doesn't sound like what we tend to refer to as "emo" in a mainstream sense these days. as charming tedious pointed out, rainer maria is the closest (unless you count the girl from straylight run, and she only sings backup), and that is still a bit different from the style played by, say, taking back sunday.

as for the concept that it's early societal gender roles that put us in this position long before music of any kind comes into the picture... i mean, sure, i'll agree with that, but that sort of invalidates jessica hopper's point from the other direction... sure, emo is sexist because it fits in with standard societal gender roles, but it's not actively reinforcing them, so at that point emo is no more sexist than society in general.

and then things get REALLY complicated.

also, i don't necessarily think that female involvement in emo is the solution either--i just got the sense that jessica hopper did. that's why i talked about it as much as i did.
Logged

I just want to be myself and I want you to love me for who I am.
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7
Print
LPTJ | Last Plane Forums | In The Earbuds | Topic: Emo is sexist
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines
Board layout based on the Oxygen design by Bloc