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657935 Posts in 9260 Topics by 3396 Members Latest Member: - vlozan86 Most online today: 79 - most online ever: 494 (Jul 01, 2007, 02:59:53 PM)
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Author Topic: 8/22  (Read 6647 times)
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John
edit0r
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Posts: 10925


« on: Aug 22, 2004, 11:37:03 PM »

New piece up as of NOW
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boganlux
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Posts: 1149


« Reply #1 on: Aug 23, 2004, 01:23:55 AM »

Wow, I have to say I have no idea what you're getting at.
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normalcarpetride
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Posts: 41


« Reply #2 on: Aug 23, 2004, 01:28:29 AM »

Sometimes I think people are too lazy to give time and energy to form personal opinions and instead repeat the party line. I try and divorce myself from the hype and inevitable backlash game as much as possible. I know ignoring a problem doesn't make it disappear but I think it may be too far gone to change it.

I hope i'm getting where you're trying to say here.
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Sonia
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Posts: 5


« Reply #3 on: Aug 23, 2004, 03:01:56 AM »

Go Plautus!!!

Not too many other ancient authors get quoted by the Clash, though we know that Iggy Pop likes Gibbon.

Maneam an abeam?
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George threw a tantrum when Yoko took one of his digestive biscuits without asking.
mackro
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Posts: 8658


« Reply #4 on: Aug 23, 2004, 03:21:50 AM »

If my guess is correct, and John is venting about the rather unnecessary exercise in artist group anxiety called "proving one's authenticity" or -- to phrase it another way -- "keeping it real", then I have to agree.

It's really hard for humans who have worked hard to obtain so much knowledge about a certain artform to NOT find a way to showcase that knowledge without occasionally wanting to get some glitter from their sweat while in the lights on the risers... and I think learning to funnel that knowledge and being able to present that knowledge in a way that's educational but not in a condescending way is and was a cornerstone in my life, as far as music goes.

(although my post here is slightly hypocritical in that respect, and i hope i'm not alone or lost everybody already here, too, haha)
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i'm not sexiest yet know know
jebreject
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Posts: 27071


« Reply #5 on: Aug 23, 2004, 04:23:53 AM »

Is it Sunday already?
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I'm not racist, I've got lots of black Facebook friends.
Good Intentions
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Posts: 13882


« Reply #6 on: Aug 23, 2004, 05:54:56 AM »

I believe there is only one rational and effective solution for this problem.

Burn down the major record labels.

Not like we need a real excuse, is it?
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John
edit0r
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Posts: 10925


« Reply #7 on: Aug 23, 2004, 07:56:45 AM »

Quote from: "mackro"
If my guess is correct, and John is venting about the rather unnecessary exercise in artist group anxiety called "proving one's authenticity" or -- to phrase it another way -- "keeping it real", then I have to agree.


I'm actually not 100% clear on my own "point" - this piece is a close to straight critical-theory as I've come in some time - I have to say I'm happier with it than I've been with any music-crit piece I've written in some time.
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mdavids
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Posts: 4


« Reply #8 on: Aug 23, 2004, 08:57:09 AM »

John, I think it's a good piece too.

Here's something else to consider: Is it insecurity (i.e., the desire to have your purchases commented on by the record store clerk) that distinguishes the true Heggies from those who break the first rule? Can battling insecurity break the hold that critical street gangs have on our listening habits?

I also think that this is wrapped up in adolescence, but it's 9 o'clock on a Monday morning and I have to get to work.
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specks
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Posts: 1


« Reply #9 on: Aug 23, 2004, 11:37:23 AM »

Isn't part of the problem that pop criticism -- if what we're talking about is pop criticism -- hasn't gotten out of an inherently Hegemonic mindset? I mean, even if pro-Pop critics are borrowing from Frankfurt School and poststructuralist criticism (both good ideas, I think), it never gets past "smash-hit-or-trash-it" levels of critique.

Maybe I'm yanking this discussion too far toward my own frustrations with current critical modes, but it seems a shame to me that the rapidly expanding and increasingly interesting vocabulary music criticism is working with is still only used to prove the stuff you like rules while all the other stuff sucks.

Scarface does, indeed, rule, by the way.
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haav
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Posts: 84


« Reply #10 on: Aug 23, 2004, 12:54:04 PM »

edited: crap post
re-edited: i still desire info

Quote
Music blogs came late to the idea that Proper Pop Music, the kind without pretensions to Significance or Meaning or Value, is Really And Truly The Best Kind Of Music.


Does anyone have any good examples of bloggers who promote this idea?
I guess I haven't really come across any, and I'm thinking it would be helpful to read some in order to flesh this "Into the Fray" Scenerio out...
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I still take the existence of peaches on hearsay.
Scott CE
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Posts: 499


« Reply #11 on: Aug 24, 2004, 02:44:06 PM »

The piece resonated with me as a Seattleite who has to deal with the "indie" hegemony in this city, whereby any music that does not have some "idea" behind it, or is not fun in an ironic way, is considered less than. (and I have no IDEA if this comports with what you were talking about John, but it's what it made me think of)

So rap music is only considered cool if it is "positive" (sorry for all the quotations, but what choice do I have?) or if it has a message of some sort, and even then only if that rap music is NOT popular.  Kexp, our local hipster station, will only play Jay-Z if it's remixed by Danger Mouse (or during the 2 hour sunday window where mainstream rap is at least occasionally acknowledged), despite the fact that the beats on the Black Album are BETTER than the production on the grey album (and I would be willing to bet that which one is BETTER isn't even part of the equation when determining whether to play the Black Album.)  They'll play Clem Snide covering "Beautiful," but they won't play the song itself, because *wink* we all know its kind of silly.

This isn't a shot at the radio station, which I actually love, but just this really tiresome attitude of what's valid and real as art.  What passes for "criticism" in Seattle is often based entirely on whether or not a piece of music can be easliy digested while reading Harper's, McSweeney's, or the Stranger, and whether one thinks that said music is independent, whatever that means, or makes some effort to alienate itself from whatever is perceived as the mainstream.  It's a totally false dichotomy that most a lot of people here embrace with their whole being.  So
"hip" people will listen to Phoenix but not Fleetwood Mac or Steely Dan, Talib Kweli, but not Kanye West, the Electric Six but not Kiss (just a few random choices, there are probably better examples).  And the fact that they listen to one but not the other is not based on a belief that the music of one is better than the music of the other, but that the music of the more independent, less mainstream acts is inherently more valuable than the other stuff.

Which is so obviously loony bin fucking crazy, as John notes, that one hardly knows where to begin.  No idea if that's what you were getting at John, but it's how I took it.
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Charming Tedious
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Posts: 731


« Reply #12 on: Aug 24, 2004, 07:06:59 PM »

Scott, I have to say I disagree with you about the state of "criticism" in Seattle.  I know one of the writers for one of the alt-weeklies, and the editor for the other alt-weekly frequents this board, and I really don't see that uncritical-preferencing-of-anything-indie vibe coming across in their work at all.  Matos wrote a book about Prince, for heaven's sake.

If people tend to focus on indie/underground stuff, it's not because of a negative view of the mainstream, but because that's what they're passionate about, and where they feel like they can help in the context of an industry where most artists really have to struggle to make a living.    A positive review for Steely Dan in an alt-weekly is inconsequential in the larger scheme of things;  a positive review for an up-and-coming artist like Laura Veirs, for example, can really help artists, promotors, small venues, etc.

Similarly, I enjoy Jay-Z and Kanye West, but I don't play them on my radio show, because they don't need my help!  I suspect programmers at KEXP might feel the same way.

Anyway, back to John's piece...  I'm hella intrigued but also hella baffled by this.  I need to spend some more time trying to unpack it, but is anyone brave enough to advance a cliffs notes outline(recognizing that such an endeavor is disgustingly reductive)?
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Scott CE
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Posts: 499


« Reply #13 on: Aug 24, 2004, 08:53:58 PM »

Yeah, I agree the Seattle Weekly is excellent, but keep in mind that most of the writers (sans Matos) do NOT LIVE IN SEATTLE, and that it's improvement is a relatively recent development.   I am sure I sound bitchier about this than I intend to be, as generally the Seattle music scene is great (and I would like to re-iterate that I am not trying to bash KEXP, which is a truly heroic station).

I also agree that promoting artists that "need help" is a really good and worthwhile thing to do.  But that's not neccessarily a good foundation for criticism.

I also really think that a lot of people in Seattle do embrace indie AS AGAINST their view of the mainstream of pop.  I get Kexp's John in the Morning's daily emails to the "Morning Faithful," the bottom half of which is largely emails from listeners that are really dismissive of anything mainstream, including a section called something like "Song of the Day that Dan Hates" which is basically just stuff like "Britney Spears is stupid."  And the Stranger is chock full of mainstream bashing on a weekly basis.

CT, what radio show do you host?

Anyway, sorry for the Seattle-centric discussion.  Carry on.
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Matos_W.K.
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Posts: 9129


« Reply #14 on: Aug 27, 2004, 11:47:07 PM »

[twiddles thumbs, looks off to side]]
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There is nothing wrong with sentimentality, provided itís genuine.
Doctor Bob
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Posts: 2882


« Reply #15 on: Aug 31, 2004, 02:33:44 PM »

While it might be a little off the point, a friend reminded me the other day (in a different context) of the wonderful phrase (anyone know the originator?):
"Academic in-fighting is so bitter because the stakes are so small."

It might be a little off the point, but it might not.

Regards.


PS I thought the article from which this thread has derived was one of the best on LPTJ in some time, at least until it started to make (real) sense, when it seemed initially to be grasping for something _else_.

"Please do not understand me too quickly." (Jean Malaquais)

And my standard 'footer' might have relevance here too (see below).
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Yowza. Things happen when you go outside!
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