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658067 Posts in 9262 Topics by 3396 Members Latest Member: - vlozan86 Most online today: 56 - most online ever: 494 (Jul 01, 2007, 02:59:53 PM)
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Author Topic: Association Football in The British Isles  (Read 26197 times)
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Good Intentions
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« Reply #475 on: Mar 25, 2012, 06:05:00 PM »

Well, Scottish football is going to go out in the style it has established over the past decade - spitefully and full of recriminations. And then Rangers will disappear, and Celtic will be the undisputed king of the scorched earth.
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Chet
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« Reply #476 on: Mar 25, 2012, 11:29:51 PM »

Shocked
We well and truly shit the bed. Which seems to be a nasty habit with Lennon's Celtic team in truly big games. We have a lot of talented players, but are lacking any real leaders. Not enough experience. The average age of the team is under 24, I believe.
That said, the two sendings off were soft. Compare the first one with the one last week, where Stokes had an open goal at his mercy, and the football actually at his feet, yet got a yellow card for diving (why would he dive when he had a chance to equalise?!). The second one, sure it was two footed, by Wanyama got the ball cleanly, the studs were not up, and he barely touched the hun. The most dangerous part of it was Whitakker's stamp when he fell down.

That said, we were still poor.



Well, Scottish football is going to go out in the style it has established over the past decade - spitefully and full of recriminations. And then Rangers will disappear, and Celtic will be the undisputed king of the scorched earth.
The myth that Scottish Football needs a strong Rangers to prosper is one perpetuated by the Scottish media who have a vested interest in making sure they survive and continue to play in the SPL in the immediate future. When Rangers were in no mans land in the 80s, it led to the rise of "The New Firm" of Aberdeen and Dundee Utd, who both won league titles, and both competed well in European Competition.
Imagine if Rangers were to be liquidated, and have to form a new company and rise through the leagues again, now the bigger provincial clubs will have a genuine chance at winning a trophy and getting second place and earning European football. Qualification for the group stages of the CL or even the Europa League would bring in more money than visits from Rangers or any current or future television deal, thus making any team stronger. It could even lead to them competing with Celtic, because we would not be spending as much money.
This is all hypothetical anyway, and the longer this goes on the more I think Rangers are going to come out of this with minimum punishment. Whether it's a deal with HMRC to pay pennies in the pound of any bill if they lose the tax case, or if they liquidate and form as a new company and are allowed direct re-entry into the SPL, which is something I can actually see the Establishment letting happen. If it was any other league, the punishments would be severe and wide ranging, after all, they have effectively been cheating for the past decade or so.
« Last Edit: Mar 25, 2012, 11:31:51 PM by Chet » Logged

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Good Intentions
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« Reply #477 on: Mar 26, 2012, 04:12:43 AM »

Scottish football was in a better position in the 80s than it is now. Neither Rangers or Celtic have featured in the CL for going on five years, for instance, and I can't say that it seems likely to change any time soon.

I hope, with you, that Rangers' implosion doesn't mean that Scottish football sinks without a trace in the doldrums, but it is in bad health right now, and seems destined to worsen.
« Last Edit: Mar 26, 2012, 04:15:40 AM by Good Intentions » Logged
Chet
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« Reply #478 on: Mar 26, 2012, 05:05:01 AM »

And why was it stronger in the 80s? Because it was more competitive. A league without Rangers would be more competitive. The smaller clubs would attract bigger crowds if they have something tangible to play for i.e second place, and the guarantee of at least a few games of European football, and a better chance of winning the two cup competitions.
If anything you can say Rangers have been bad for the game over the past couple of decades; they spent recklessly in the 90s and early 00s leaving the rest of the league in the wake, making it effectively a one team league until Martin O'Neill turned up, and it turns out some of their activity during this time could have been illegal. Their fans have continually disgraced themselves in other countries - see Pamplona, 2007, Manchester, 2008 for just a couple of examples - tarnishing them image of Scottish football.

It has been three seasons since Celtic played in the CL, and one of them was a write off because of Mowbray's disastrous tenure, and Lennon can be forgiven for failing to qualify the last chance we had due to just taking over and not yet having a chance to clear out the former's mess. There is every chance we will qualify for next season if we keep our squad together. Then again, that depends on how the draw for qualifiers treats us. The who qualification and seeding system for the CL is deeply unfair anyway, and is designed to perpetuate the monopoly that the Spanish, English and Italian teams hold over the competition.
« Last Edit: Mar 26, 2012, 05:12:25 AM by Chet » Logged

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Good Intentions
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« Reply #479 on: Mar 26, 2012, 05:59:23 AM »

The who qualification and seeding system for the CL is deeply unfair anyway, and is designed to perpetuate the monopoly that the Spanish, English and Italian teams hold over the competition.
Tell that to APOEL Nikosia, who've made the group stages twice running and are now in the quarters.

I'm also amused that you think that now that it's just one runaway club instead of the two the league will be more competitive.

Believe what you like - you watch more Scottish football than I do - but most people with an eye on the game would say you've got blinkers on.
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Chet
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« Reply #480 on: Mar 26, 2012, 08:26:08 AM »



Tell that to APOEL Nikosia, who've made the group stages twice running and are now in the quarters.

I'm also amused that you think that now that it's just one runaway club instead of the two the league will be more competitive.

Believe what you like - you watch more Scottish football than I do - but most people with an eye on the game would say you've got blinkers on.

Point a: of course this is the rule, rather than the exception, huh? Go look at the how many times a team outside of the big four (england, germany, italy and spain) leagues has reach the semi finals this century.

Point b: it will be more competitive between the other clubs for reasons that I have already specified. and with the prospect of celtic spending less money the gap would potentially not be as big as it is now.

Point c: of course, i who have been following scottish football since i could talk, and who knows the history, couldn't possibly be right.
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Good Intentions
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« Reply #481 on: Mar 26, 2012, 10:20:43 PM »

Tell that to APOEL Nikosia, who've made the group stages twice running and are now in the quarters.

I'm also amused that you think that now that it's just one runaway club instead of the two the league will be more competitive.

Believe what you like - you watch more Scottish football than I do - but most people with an eye on the game would say you've got blinkers on.

Point a: of course this is the rule, rather than the exception, huh? Go look at the how many times a team outside of the big four (england, germany, italy and spain) leagues has reach the semi finals this century.
The rules for qualification has been changed recently, with the explicit aim of encouraging teams from smaller nations. APOEL are just one club with exceptional success, and a swallow doesn't make a spring, but it does indicate at least some success at that task. But the Scottish clubs have made no more progress in the CL. In fact, they have looked awful in qualification. It is hard to compare the quality of leagues, but by every indication we do have (direct competition, like the CL, and the performance of players as they move from one to the other, e.g. Suarez and Kuyt scored for fun in the Dutch Eredivisie, and that indicates the corresponding lower standard in that league as compared to the EPL), the Scottish clubs don't appear favourably. They, in fact, look very poor - the only positive indication has been Pogrebnyak's spectacular start in the EPL for Fulham.
Quote
Point b: it will be more competitive between the other clubs for reasons that I have already specified. and with the prospect of celtic spending less money the gap would potentially not be as big as it is now.
The gap might not be as large, and the football even poorer.
Quote
Point c: of course, i who have been following scottish football since i could talk, and who knows the history, couldn't possibly be right.
I didn't say you couldn't possibly be right. But you're not the only person with intimate knowledge of Scottish football. You know more about Scottish football than I do, by a large margin, but I watch a lot of football and follow it pretty closely, and the majority view of commentators is that Scottish football has been in a very bad position for the past decade, and is only likely to get worse. From what I've seen, that looks the most likely to me as well. It's really sad, given Scotland's extraordinary history in the game, and the steady string of top-class managers who still seem to be produced from there.
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Good Intentions
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« Reply #482 on: Mar 26, 2012, 10:30:44 PM »

We can drop this, I don't want to seem like I'm setting out to convince you that you don't know anything about the league you follow. My last few posts have been me being really rather bummed out by what looks for all the world like the disastrous decline of the SPL.
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Thermofusion
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« Reply #483 on: Mar 27, 2012, 12:41:20 AM »

I'm also amused that you think that now that it's just one runaway club instead of the two the league will be more competitive.

Yeah this is what I'm confused about, also. Like, I know that European sports leagues operate under vastly different models that American sports leagues, but I don't understand how the SPL would be stronger with one team dominating every year. Two teams dominating every year seems boring enough already, but at least there's two of them. I see what dogg is saying though, if Rangers ceased to exist, maybe one of the teams with tiny payrolls that no one's ever heard of finishes a distant second to Celtic and is awarded the opportunity to get steamrolled and/or embarrassed in the Champions League. Right? CHET I AM JUST A DUMB AMERICAN DOGG I'M JUST TRYINA UNDERSTAND.
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Nick Ink
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« Reply #484 on: Mar 27, 2012, 01:44:52 AM »

Not to speak for Chet, but without Rangers, all the others would only have one 'certain defeat' fixture, rather than two (multiplied by however many times they play each other). The result would be a much more competetive race for second place in the league, and the European qualification it brings. Those European games then open up the chance of a (possibly huge) cash windfall and a non-Old Firm team to expand and thrive. As Chet's already said, Aberdeen did it - they won the European Cup, in fact.

Also, I suppose those other clubs might be a bit more likely to get their hands on better players from the pool, though this is a bit shaky as Rangers are hardly all-Scottish.

edit: sorry, didn't read thermo's post properly and basically repeated it!
« Last Edit: Mar 27, 2012, 01:47:29 AM by Nick Ink » Logged

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Chet
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« Reply #485 on: Mar 27, 2012, 03:34:25 AM »


I didn't say you couldn't possibly be right. But you're not the only person with intimate knowledge of Scottish football. You know more about Scottish football than I do, by a large margin, but I watch a lot of football and follow it pretty closely, and the majority view of commentators is that Scottish football has been in a very bad position for the past decade, and is only likely to get worse. From what I've seen, that looks the most likely to me as well. It's really sad, given Scotland's extraordinary history in the game, and the steady string of top-class managers who still seem to be produced from there.

Oh you mean the past decade in which both Celtic and Rangers (admittedly their run saw some of the worst football ever witnessed by man) went to UEFA cup finals? The past decade in which Celtic went to the last 16 of the champions league twice, beating the like of man utd and ac milan on the way? i'm sure there are leagues across europe who would have like to have been in such a "very bad position". If you would have said the past couple of years, i'd have given you that.
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Good Intentions
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« Reply #486 on: Mar 27, 2012, 04:36:33 AM »

If you would have said the past couple of years, i'd have given you that.
Let's settle on that, then.
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Nick Ink
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« Reply #487 on: Mar 27, 2012, 04:56:58 PM »

Good win tonight - huge game at home to Reading on  Saturday now, then a run-in of 6 more. Time for the sheep to be sorted from the goats.
 

1   Southampton   39   37   78
2   Reading   39   22   73
-------------------------------------
3   West Ham   39   23   72
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Nick Ink
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« Reply #488 on: Apr 05, 2012, 04:12:22 PM »

^^ ah well, less said about that one the better!

Now, it's (very much) not British Isles-related, but the way the UEFA Cup quarters are going tonight, there is likely to be 3 Spanish semi-finalists. Add a probable Real Madrid V Barcelona Champions' League final, and it starts to look like a bit of a monopoly.

I also wanted to make sure you all knew that someone called Ricky Van Wolfswinkel just scored for Sporting Lisbon.  Smile
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Chet
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« Reply #489 on: Apr 05, 2012, 04:26:05 PM »

I find the UEFA cup, or Europa League is it must now be known, to be a much more interesting an exciting competition than the Champions League these days.
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Nick Ink
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« Reply #490 on: Apr 05, 2012, 04:58:42 PM »

...or Europa League as it must now be known...

Oh yes, oops. It takes me a while to adjust to these changes, I'm afraid. I still talk about West Ham playing in Division Two.
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Chet
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« Reply #491 on: Apr 07, 2012, 03:08:37 PM »

We've won the league again, fly the flagggg, fly the flagggg!

Celtic finally clinched the title with an emphatic 6-0 victory at Kilmarnock's Rugby Park, where three sides of the stadium were taken over by Celtic fans.

After everything Neil Lennon has to put up with over the last year or so - things that no person who is just going about their life and job should ever have to put up with - this is probably the sweetest league title for me since we stopped Rangers doing 10 in a Row.
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Chet
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« Reply #492 on: Apr 07, 2012, 03:56:21 PM »



 Very Happy
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Nick Ink
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« Reply #493 on: Apr 07, 2012, 06:48:18 PM »

Nice one.
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Chet
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« Reply #494 on: Apr 08, 2012, 03:49:48 PM »

you wont be seeing this in the many libraries in the EPL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nh5bFxjMhTc
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Nick Ink
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« Reply #495 on: Apr 14, 2012, 12:26:34 PM »


 Cool Cool Cool Cool Cool Cool Cool Cool Cool Cool Cool Cool Cool Cool Cool Cool Cool Cool Cool Cool Cool Cool Cool Cool Cool Cool Cool Cool Cool Cool Cool Cool  Cool
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Chet
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« Reply #496 on: Apr 14, 2012, 12:35:43 PM »

nice hair!

tragic news about the young lad from livorno.


better news that doncaster got relegated. GIRUY diouf.
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Nick Ink
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« Reply #497 on: Apr 17, 2012, 12:33:16 PM »

Ladbrokes sent me a free £5 bet because their website was down when I tried to put something on the Grand National at the weekend. Anyway, I've done West Ham, Swindon and, er, Peterborough to win tonight @15/1. Fingers crossed.

In the real world, the race for promotion to the Premiership, from the Championship, is reaching its climax. The top two go up automatically, and the next 4 eneter a play-off competition for one further place. It's all unspeakably thrilling. Here's the table with 3 games to go.

Reading 85
Southampton 82
----------------------
West Ham 79
Birmingham 71
Blackpool 68
Cardiff 68
----------------------
Middlesbrough 66
Brighton 63
Leicester 62
Hull 62


Reading are almost there, and probably only need one more win, but after Saturday's 6-0, the Hammers are right back in contention. We obviously really need Southampton to slip up though - the automatic place is theirs to lose.

As for the other 3 play-off places, Birmingham look almost there and Hull and Brighton have probably lost their chance, so it's 2 from  Blackpool, Cardiff and Middlesbrough. I know there are Blackpool fans on the board (Thermo, right?).

Anyway, tonight's relevant fixtures are:
Bristol City (desperate for points to avoid relegation) V West Ham
Peterborough (nearly safe, free-scoring, always let goals in) V Southampton
Reading V Nottm Forest (had a bad season, come into form recently and nearly safe now)
Ipswich (unpredictable, but nothing to play for/mid-table) V Birmingham
Blackpool V Leeds (mid-table, in transition, dangerous on their day)
Cardiff V Derby (had a good season but faded after Xmas)
Middlesbrough V Doncaster (already relegated, cert home win)
Leicester V Burnley (mid-table)
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Thermofusion
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« Reply #498 on: Apr 17, 2012, 12:49:22 PM »

Very exciting, especially with B'ham, Blackpool, Cardiff and Middlesbrough less than a couple wins apart from each other! Again wishing there was an easier way for me to monitor the games. There's usually a free live text commentary, but it's a bit like receiving updates by telegraph. I think you can pay a fee to subscribe to live audio commentary, but that would be kinda silly this late in the season.
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Thermofusion
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« Reply #499 on: Apr 17, 2012, 01:13:23 PM »

Was just looking at my local third-tier pro soccer team's roster for the new season. They've got a journeyman English midfielder who's played for 22 different clubs (beginning as a sub with West Bromwich Albion), but he's also played for a defunct American team called "Kalamazoo Outrage" and something called "Tooting and Mitcham United," which are the two silliest soccer club names I've ever come across.
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