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658012 Posts in 9261 Topics by 3396 Members Latest Member: - vlozan86 Most online today: 53 - most online ever: 494 (Jul 01, 2007, 02:59:53 PM)
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Author Topic: Woo-ha! Ain't science something?  (Read 42916 times)
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elpollodiablo
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« Reply #75 on: Dec 10, 2009, 12:32:27 PM »

I'm sure everyone has seen this, but the images are still pretty wild:

http://gawker.com/5422979/norway-light-spiral-was-a-failed-missile-launch-says-scientist
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think 'on the road.'
diesel_powered
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Posts: 19210


« Reply #76 on: Dec 10, 2009, 12:35:11 PM »

I saw that on the news. I assume it's some kind of thing with extra-terrestrials. I'm surprised they blamed it on the Russians instead of a weather balloon, though. Seems like cold war finger pointing is a bit dated.
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she had me at "let's make a sandwich"
elpollodiablo
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« Reply #77 on: Dec 10, 2009, 12:37:59 PM »

It's actually some kind of thing with a missile
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think 'on the road.'
diesel_powered
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« Reply #78 on: Dec 10, 2009, 12:40:07 PM »

Suuuuuuuuuure it is.
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she had me at "let's make a sandwich"
Greg Nog
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« Reply #79 on: Dec 10, 2009, 01:00:13 PM »

MISSILE RUSSIANS DID 9/11
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clare
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Posts: 5192


« Reply #80 on: Dec 10, 2009, 05:17:04 PM »

Well, I can see what they're going for -- sugars, fats, proteins, vitamins -- but dang. Some red food coloring, sugar, citric acid, and water thickened with gelatin is really not an acceptable substitute for a strawberry.

Yeah, why is it that people are so hung up about milk banks? (I have a friend who has weird milk oversupply - her son is now 7 or 8, and she still has regular leaking, and I don't think she went in for any extended feeding thing. A milk bank would be glad to have her, I'm sure!)
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You must have a very long, thin, tapered penis.
ellaguru
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« Reply #81 on: Dec 11, 2009, 08:55:26 AM »

Corn syrup makes stout-hearted Americans
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I also engaged in a rigorous study of philosophy and religion...but cheerfulness kept creeping in.
diesel_powered
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« Reply #82 on: Dec 11, 2009, 12:53:08 PM »

Yeah, why is it that people are so hung up about milk banks? (I have a friend who has weird milk oversupply - her son is now 7 or 8, and she still has regular leaking, and I don't think she went in for any extended feeding thing. A milk bank would be glad to have her, I'm sure!)

Hung up as in squeamish? I would think it would be no big thing, just like donating blood. In addition to being good for babies, banked breast milk is also good for AIDS patients, cancer patients, people with compromised immune systems, etc. I'm actually surprised that they haven't come out with a formula that's a little more advanced than corn syrup and food dye. But then again, I was raised primarily on soy and turned out okay, so maybe it's not as important as people make it out to be.
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she had me at "let's make a sandwich"
jess
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« Reply #83 on: Dec 11, 2009, 01:05:33 PM »

Well, you'd need to screen people like with blood donations, but the screenings would need to be even more extreme I'd think because you'd need to rule out things like any alcohol consumption, the use of many medications (there are many meds where the risk of taking them when breast-feeding is unknown, and while it's one thing to make that choice for your kid, it's another to expose someone else's kid to it), and more. I'm not sure how feasible either screening the women or the milk itself would be, or rather, how expensive that would make the final product. Besides, then you'd have the ethical question of paying women to do this, and would you end up with poor women feeling compelled to sell their milk for a relatively easy buck and rich women being the ones who could afford said milk, and basically a modern-day version of wet nurses. You might even end up with women in foreign countries being exploited for breast milk where there may be fewer laws to protect them (much like is currently happening with surrogate mothers—rich American women get third world women to carry their babies because the odds of them later claiming the kid or having any laws on their side are much fewer and they'll agree to do it much less money.) So lots of potential sketchiness there as far as I can tell, although I can see plenty of arguments for it too.
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diesel_powered
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« Reply #84 on: Dec 11, 2009, 01:10:56 PM »

Yeah, there's definitely a lot of issues surrounding it, but in terms of a localized banking system, I think they've addressed most of them. It gets screened just like blood transfusions and then it gets screened for all the other things you mentioned. I would think that alcohol, medication, herbs, etc. would be less of an issue than you would think since all of those things are supposed to be avoided by nursing mothers in the first place. So I guess in the abstract, it's great, but the concerns you raised definitely need to be addressed.
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she had me at "let's make a sandwich"
jess
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« Reply #85 on: Dec 11, 2009, 01:19:59 PM »

Sure, those things are supposed to be avoided by nursing mothers, but I wouldn't simply trust that all nursing mothers comply with those guidelines, and like I said, for many medications there isn't a strict guideline, but there may levels of risk that mothers will want to decide for themselves. I suppose that may just be a level of risk involved with accepting milk bank milk, but I am wary that institutions would want to assume that liability especially given the huge settlements awarded typically by juries when they determine that something fucked up a baby (which is why obgyn medical malpractice rates are ridiculously high).

The ethical issues are more of a concern though to me in terms of milk banks, especially given that I don't think that you'll get a sustainable rate of contributions unless you pay people to donate. Donating blood is easy because you donate once and that's enough to really help someone. Donate milk once and that's enough to feed a child once. In order to get a substantial amount of milk, you'll need either regular donators or a huge amount of them, and that's not going to happen without payments, and then you go down that very iffy ethical slope previously mentioned.
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diesel_powered
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« Reply #86 on: Dec 11, 2009, 01:32:47 PM »

I dunno if you're giving the whole blood thing credit, though. As far as blood goes, it's not like the single pint you're donating is really going to save anyone's life in and of itself. Sure, it will as part of a greater transfusion, but most situations where blood is required need more than that single pint. And that's assuming it doesn't go past its shelf life first. Most people I know who donate blood seriously do it on a regular basis whenever they can, and nobody pays them for donating. I think it's ultimately a matter of screening and PR. The Red Cross has set up a huge PR environment around why you should donate blood out of the goodness of your heart and it seems to work thus far, even with plasma places paying and with the volume of people who can't donate due to risk behaviors, etc. I think you could probably do the same considering that it's something that usually just gets disposed of. You'd be surprised at what people do for no other reason than it helps others.
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she had me at "let's make a sandwich"
jess
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« Reply #87 on: Dec 11, 2009, 01:43:00 PM »

I think you are overestimating the amount of time and energy new mothers are likely to have—I don't doubt good intentions are there, but that's not a group that has a lot of ability to do regular donations most likely. And even if you need a whole bunch of blood donations to save a person's life, you still are going to need WAY more milk donations to feed just one baby. Granted, if what you are giving people is some sort of milk/formula combo, so that you can stretch the milk farther but still give babies something superior to 100% formula, that might be more doable. I'm still pretty skeptical though.
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diesel_powered
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« Reply #88 on: Dec 11, 2009, 01:45:43 PM »

I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but the surplus milk has to go somewhere, right? How is it so much different to put it in the freezer vs. the drain?
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she had me at "let's make a sandwich"
YojimboMonkey
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« Reply #89 on: Dec 11, 2009, 01:46:43 PM »

I don't have the details on hand but basically my wife is alive today because a bunch of mothers all over eastern Washington state donated breast milk to help feed her when she was born 14 weeks premature, I don't know about milk banks but when there's an actual baby on the other end, mothers will donate
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Anus-licking causes sepsis; if not given antibiotics within a half hour, they perish.
diesel_powered
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« Reply #90 on: Dec 11, 2009, 01:49:55 PM »

Yeah, I mean, getting a bunch of women, mothers no less, together to help people doesn't strike me as as earth-shatteringly difficult. It's just a matter of setting up a workflow to make it as easy and safe as possible for everyone involved.
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she had me at "let's make a sandwich"
jess
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« Reply #91 on: Dec 11, 2009, 01:54:49 PM »

I don't have the details on hand but basically my wife is alive today because a bunch of mothers all over eastern Washington state donated breast milk to help feed her when she was born 14 weeks premature, I don't know about milk banks but when there's an actual baby on the other end, mothers will donate

That I can buy—but that's also like when communities do bone marrow drives to save a specific person. You don't see many people doing that for the general unknown public out there with leukemia.

I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but the surplus milk has to go somewhere, right? How is it so much different to put it in the freezer vs. the drain?

dp, I am assuming that you'd have to collect the milk on site like you do with blood, which would mean a significant time/effort investment on the part of the donor, if it's going to be an official organized thing for quality control reasons, but if not, that would make things easier. Doing it that way sounds kind of sketch to me though, and again, like it would probably have too much room for liability to viable I'd think.
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diesel_powered
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« Reply #92 on: Dec 11, 2009, 02:12:16 PM »

I dunno, I would think that self-supervised collection could be a viable option, especially if the milk would be pasteurized eventually (which is not as good as unadulterated milk, but still more than worthwhile). I guess I'm looking at it more like a specimen collection at the doctor's office where you'd have a sterile collection container. In fact, you could probably work a program where a woman could sign up, go through a little training, and then get a rotating collection of sterile collection containers that could hook up to a breast pump directly. Every week, somebody with a cooler and some dry ice shows up and picks up the milk and away you go. I mean, all of the concerns you're bringing up are definitely valid and important to consider, but I think that with some smart bureaucracy they could be overcome.
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she had me at "let's make a sandwich"
Ignatius
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« Reply #93 on: Dec 11, 2009, 02:18:31 PM »

Armchair milk drive administrator
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jess
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« Reply #94 on: Dec 11, 2009, 02:19:19 PM »

Hmm, I think something like that might work better if you got smaller groups to do it on a more personal level (like what Jim was describing, to help a specific woman or specific women) and maybe provided materials (both instructional and physical) to assist them in setting it up, vs creating a larger banking system. Then you would have higher rates of participation, because women would be more likely to contribute to someone they knew/a member of their more direct community, and you could probably reduce the requirements re: screening and collection because there would be more trust etc (vs a more organized entity that would be more concerned with issues of liability). Now that would be a pretty cool grassroots movement, assisting women with creating those sorts of networks.
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diesel_powered
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« Reply #95 on: Dec 11, 2009, 02:21:51 PM »

Yeah, totally. Like I said, it would have to be organized and have resources to make it as easy as possible. There's a social media site in there somewhere.
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she had me at "let's make a sandwich"
Bernard
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« Reply #96 on: Dec 11, 2009, 06:01:52 PM »

If I had the milk to spare I'd donate every drop, believe it. If you have an oversupply you are probably doing a certain amount of pumping anyway, just to relieve the pain in your breasts. I have an undersupply and if I go more than four hours or so without nursing it starts to hurt, and after five hours I am in a good amount of pain. Breast milk is not as fragile as formula and doesn't have to be flash frozen or anything. The efficient thing would be to donate & consume locally, as mentioned. I mean, doesn't make sense to fly milk from Ohio to Tokyo or anything.
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Ha, see, and look how Julian Casablancas ended up!!!!
andronicus
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« Reply #97 on: Dec 11, 2009, 06:06:55 PM »

it does if Ohio milk is delicious.
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diesel_powered
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« Reply #98 on: Dec 11, 2009, 07:40:30 PM »

And let's face it, milk from Tokyo tastes like wasabi.
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she had me at "let's make a sandwich"
Antero
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« Reply #99 on: Dec 15, 2009, 01:25:20 PM »

Octopi are kind of freaky.
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this has been OPINIONS IN CAPSLOCK
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