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658004 Posts in 9261 Topics by 3396 Members Latest Member: - vlozan86 Most online today: 60 - most online ever: 494 (Jul 01, 2007, 02:59:53 PM)
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Author Topic: #occupylptj - new news thread  (Read 18272 times)
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Babar
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« Reply #550 on: Mar 06, 2012, 12:50:21 PM »

Not actual Wall Street, but the OWS movement could be affected. The fact that the restrictions were already there, as you say, doesn't really help to sugarcoat it. This is a brash violation of the first amendment and nobody cares, which is sad.
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jm
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« Reply #551 on: Mar 06, 2012, 12:53:26 PM »

You are literally the only person who cares. About anything. Must be rough.
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Babar
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« Reply #552 on: Mar 06, 2012, 12:55:17 PM »

It is, it is.   (;_・)
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Thermofusion
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« Reply #553 on: Mar 06, 2012, 01:27:34 PM »

Did somebody feed you after midnight again Babar
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triple paisley minimum
jebreject
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« Reply #554 on: Mar 06, 2012, 03:09:39 PM »

I think they got him wet, too
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Babar
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« Reply #555 on: Mar 06, 2012, 04:09:43 PM »

I'm just worrying about your civil liberties so you don't have to, guys. It's not just jobs that are outsourced overseas, y'know  Shifty
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Anne the Man
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« Reply #556 on: Mar 06, 2012, 04:30:16 PM »

Guys, what the hell are you about. Are you seriously having a go at Babar for saying the US, including the Obama administration, is fucked up and repressive? If I or anyone else had posted that link you guys probably wouldn't have replied like that.
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Babar
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« Reply #557 on: Mar 06, 2012, 04:39:58 PM »

Thank you. We don't see eye-to-eye as to how the government should be or what its role is, but we can at least agree on that the current state of affairs is messed up.
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Anne the Man
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« Reply #558 on: Mar 06, 2012, 04:54:14 PM »

That said, Babar, this

I'm just worrying about your civil liberties so you don't have to, guys. It's not just jobs that are outsourced overseas, y'know  Shifty

is obnoxious because it's not like LPTJ is ill-informed, and pulling some WAKE UP, MAN, IT'S FUCKED UP, OCCUPY YOUR HEART AND THE LAMESTREAM MEDIA shit is stupid.
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Antero
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« Reply #559 on: Mar 06, 2012, 05:10:29 PM »

The thing about that link is that I've seen no confirmation of anything it says in any of my sources, mainstream, lefty, and libertarian.
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Quote from: nonotyet
this has been OPINIONS IN CAPSLOCK
jm
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Posts: 4803


« Reply #560 on: Mar 06, 2012, 05:12:40 PM »

Yeah, I'm not having a go at Babar because he's saying that the US is repressive or that Obama's politics are fucked or whatever (both true!), but because that particular bill has been the cause of a bunch of pants-shitting from people who only read RT and similar, when in fact the things that people are shitting their pants over have been in place since we last had major political assassinations.
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Thermofusion
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« Reply #561 on: Mar 06, 2012, 05:50:03 PM »

I'm having a go at Babar cause I thought it'd be funny to compare him to a gremlin
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jm
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« Reply #562 on: Mar 06, 2012, 05:51:20 PM »

I will also accept the gremlin defense
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dieblucasdie
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« Reply #563 on: Mar 06, 2012, 06:46:17 PM »

Quote
H.R. 347, said Mahassey, is simply a DC-centric update of already existing law. Section 1752 of title 18, United States Code, already protects those under Secret Service protection ó except in Washington D.C. where these protections fall under local laws against trespassing, etc. Mahassey said that the Secret Service requested the changes to this law because "right now itís not a federal violation to jump the fence and run across the White House lawn, this bill makes it a federal violation.Ē
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dieblucasdie
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« Reply #564 on: Mar 06, 2012, 07:06:53 PM »

I mean, I'm all for hatin' on the police state, but the idea that this law means that heckling at a Santorum rally will get you nabbed by the Secret Service and charged with a federal crime is patently absurd. When you traffic in conspiracy theory (with the sole agenda of being all "Ron Paul is the only person who CARES") you minimize the real and legitimate problems facing protest in this country.
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Good Intentions
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« Reply #565 on: Mar 06, 2012, 08:36:23 PM »

Not that we should be happy about the discretion allowed law-enforcement in this law, both under the new and the old versions. But that's par for the course, I'm afraid.
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cold before sunrise
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« Reply #566 on: Mar 06, 2012, 09:11:31 PM »

That said, Babar, this

I'm just worrying about your civil liberties so you don't have to, guys. It's not just jobs that are outsourced overseas, y'know  Shifty

is obnoxious because it's not like LPTJ is ill-informed, and pulling some WAKE UP, MAN, IT'S FUCKED UP, OCCUPY YOUR HEART AND THE LAMESTREAM MEDIA shit is stupid.

i'm so over lefty nonsense and dudes pairing green with olive it makes me barfy but if you want to explain to me how it is that americans can be well versed in political details but not see the forest for the trees then what is that but brainwashing? why don't they get it? you've got intelligent, otherwise well-adjusted people vouching for mitt romney and thinking it's all good to cluster bomb innocent strangers because somebody claimed we were upset with them for something their flag represents. how is that anything that wouldn't be described as distasteful? how is it that tossing the need for a search warrant, essentially just a reason really, to search through your things and hold you and your property indefinitely at your own expense - without being afforded comfort in the rule of law - seems like just part and parcel with due course. simply following the agenda: obey or get out of the way.
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Anne the Man
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« Reply #567 on: Mar 09, 2012, 12:02:42 AM »

Er, I guess I've gotten over my thin-skinnedness a bit, cos here is a thing I wrote about the Kony thing. http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL1203/S00084/kony-2012-or-how-not-to-do-charity.htm. Say what you like except for "you get paid to write articles?!" I didn't have time to research the Ugandan economy as much as I would've liked, but oh well.
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Little Sixes Little Nines
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« Reply #568 on: Mar 09, 2012, 12:27:53 AM »

probably one of the more thought-out responses i've seen on the issue, well done!
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DCDave
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« Reply #569 on: Mar 09, 2012, 01:16:37 AM »

Er, I guess I've gotten over my thin-skinnedness a bit, cos here is a thing I wrote about the Kony thing. http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL1203/S00084/kony-2012-or-how-not-to-do-charity.htm. Say what you like except for "you get paid to write articles?!" I didn't have time to research the Ugandan economy as much as I would've liked, but oh well.

Your characterization of the United States is farcical.
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Anne the Man
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« Reply #570 on: Mar 09, 2012, 03:00:47 AM »

*United States government.
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DCDave
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« Reply #571 on: Mar 09, 2012, 05:45:53 AM »

Once you endeavor to commit journalism, you should attempt to, I think, be objective and factual. Your writing is neither! It is poorly researched opinion which serves as propaganda and doesn't contribute to a discourse.

Quote
Kony 2012: Or, How Not To Do Charity

By Anne Russell
March 8, 2012

Like many, I only recently heard of Joseph Kony, leader of the Lordís Resistance Army in Africa.

And yet, you expound from ignorance anyways.

Quote
The LRA was founded in Northern Uganda in 1987 by a group of militant Christians,

Christians is a stretch. Calling the LRA a group of militant Christians is like calling Al-Qaeda a Muslim terrorist organization and is, in fact, non-informative.


Quote
but its ideology is unclear these days, as it seems merely determined to maintain power.

According to someone who admitted in the first sentence that she'd heard of the LRA only recently.

The next bit is a bad diatribe and mostly not worth commenting on.

Quote
This approach may be more eye-catching than boring old systematic analysis, but it ultimately acts as a distraction. Hunting and eventually killing Osama Bin Laden did not stop US-Middle Eastern conflict. Electing Barack Obama did not transform politics in the US. And defeating Kony himself will not magically stop the LRA, nor help with wider problems in Uganda and the region. Invisible Children Inc workers may realise this, but their film doesnít communicate it.

The first statement assumes that any serious thinker thought killing Osama Bin Laden would stop US-Middle Eastern conflict. I can almost assure you that they did not, so this is a straw man. Electing Barack Obama certainly did transform politics in the US in many ways, none of which you're suited to analyze given your history of policy writing and analysis and the level to which you engage with actual facts. If you wanted to make a sweeping statement (X did not Y) you should give your reader the credit of assuming they want you to support it, not just insist they agree with your conclusion.

Quote
Kony 2012 is a simplistic, condescending and ill-informed advertisement, but its message also has the potential to be quite dangerous. One of the most troubling aspects of Invisible Children Inc is its desire to work with the US and Ugandan governments against the LRA. Letís get one thing straight: the US government is not a humanitarian ally. Most of its foreign policies involve formalised concern-trolling, bombing civilians while purporting to liberate them.

This is completely counter-factual, and a cursory glance at the work of either US AID or the Department of State writ large disproves it.

Quote
From 2000-2008óunder a leader Invisible Children Inc want to work withóit began two Middle Eastern wars on false premises and practiced torture in secret.

Afghanistan is not in the Middle East, nor was an invasion there begun on false premises. The United States had cassus belli under any reasonable definition of cassus belli.

Quote
Only last year it contributed to a third war in Libya, discussed starting another in Iran,

The US in this sense is not a monolith - Some Republicans discussed starting war in Iran and the Pentagon may have produced some analytic memos. That does not constitute "Discussion" of starting a war.

Quote
and made it legal to imprison its own citizens without trial.

This is simply false, do you know what a signing statement is?

Quote
Again, let me emphasise this: the US government acts as an elected dictatorship at home and a colonising empire abroad. Upholding it as a humanitarian agent or enlisting its help to spread democracy overseas is like putting a serial rapist in charge of Womenís Refuge.

And this is total bullshit.

Quote
Many of the results of US aid in Uganda have proven this theory. While benefiting many Ugandans, US aid has helped prop up an illegitimate government headed by Yoweri Museveni, who has been in power for 26 years. The Ugandan government (again, who Invisible Children Inc wants to work with!) ranks a lowly 143 on Transparency International's 2011 Corruption Perception Index, cracking down on media freedom and discussing legislation for capital punishment of homosexuality. US aid represents over half of Ugandaís national budget, suggesting it encourages aid dependency. The strings attached to this aid have included economic reforms creating a primary-product export economy, which benefits US businesses looking for cheap raw materials. Moreover, the US relies on the Ugandan government as a strategic ally in the War on Terror against its Islamist neighbour and enemy the Sudan. Invisible Children Inc is mistaken to get into bed with either of these repressive regimes.

This is a false dichotomy.

Quote
Ugandan-US bilateralism clearly goes far beyond belated attempts to stop the Lordís Resistance Army. But, as Kony 2012 didnít tell us, what is happening with the LRA right now? Well, among other things, they havenít been in Uganda for six years, but have mostly been operating in Democratic Republic of the Congo, Central African Republic and South Sudan. Invisible Children Inc thus seems rather confused in discussing Uganda in relation to the LRA at all; this is likely done to gain support for its Ugandan governmental allies. However, the LRA numbers are only in the hundreds, as are the resultant deaths from their activities over comparatively long periods of time. Is this really the regionís key problem requiring millions of enthusiastic Western activists to pitch in and do, erÖSomething?

The LRA has actually been in an amorphous border region that is ill-governed between the four states, but sure.

Quote
Many problems in Uganda are not as Hollywood-esque as those the Kony 2012 video shows. Aside from government corruption, Ugandan health levels are some of the worst in the world. Life expectancy is low, with widespread AIDS and malaria, and trained medical staff are scarce. In recent news, real invisible children are arguably those dying from the mysterious Nodding Disease. All of these problems could use extensive activist support to counter them. Kony 2012 showcased some great techniques, but missed the opportunity to put out a useful message.

If your essay had been only this paragraph, you would have had a point.

Quote
In reality, aid work is rarely as glitzy or simple as Kony 2012 paints it. Buying a bracelet will not make Uganda a better place. Moreover, helping any charity that supports corrupt states will help worsen civiliansí problems. Invisible Children Incís video fails to mention that NGOs have been in Uganda for decades, and most have a deeper understanding of systematic problems in the country. While giving money to causes in foreign countries is always problematic, since no agencies are entirely free of corruption, one can improve the situation by researching what work each NGO carries out before donating. Reliable NGOs probably donít focus on exchanging money for hanging out with George Clooney or buying a nice T-shirt, but they are better equipped to help Ugandans help themselves, which is more the point.

This is fine too.
« Last Edit: Mar 09, 2012, 05:50:07 AM by DCDave » Logged

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Anne the Man
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Posts: 4444


« Reply #572 on: Mar 09, 2012, 06:06:24 AM »

Yikes. I don't agree with all of your points, slash I think some of them are splitting hairs, and are more related to my poor choice of words than content. But thank you for criticism, I'll think about it and try take it into account. (Really not trying to pull a Babar there.) Also not replying extensively because I've been working on other stuff all evening etc.

I think you're coming from a perspective where you think everyone thinks well and of course no one would ever think killing Bin Laden was a solution to anything. And yet it was encouraged by both Bush and Obama administrations, so many people clearly did believe it. Not that the US government always has a clear mandate from its citizens, but it sure wasn't universally condemned as a policy platform. I should've phrased the Obama thing differently, what I meant was that it didn't completely transform US politics. And this damn doco is not focused on systems but on killing Kony. It's not as though there aren't parallels, even if they aren't completely literal.

Right, sorry about calling Afghanistan Middle Eastern and the premises false. But on that and the signing statement, again these are things that required minor editorial tweaking of word choice, not undermining the existence of the NDAA or the injustice of the war in Afghanistan. Apologies for not researching those parts enough.

Perhaps I'm not meaning to say that Invisible Children shouldn't work with those governments _at all_ but simply that they shouldn't do it so blithely.

Anyway, blah. I'm off to go do others.
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Good Intentions
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Posts: 13882


« Reply #573 on: Mar 09, 2012, 06:56:00 AM »

Once you endeavor to commit journalism, you should attempt to, I think, be objective and factual. Your writing is neither! It is poorly researched opinion which serves as propaganda and doesn't contribute to a discourse.
It is an opinion piece. I'm not sure what you think it is propaganda for. By that I mean, you couldn't possible be right that it is a piece of propaganda, and are over-egging the pudding a bit.
« Last Edit: Mar 09, 2012, 07:06:56 AM by Good Intentions » Logged
Good Intentions
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« Reply #574 on: Mar 09, 2012, 07:11:50 AM »

I genuinely don't know a thing about the Kony video (surprised to suddenly hear people talk about the Lord's Resistance Army), though I've seen a lot of the backlash and some of the anti-backlash. I'm pissed off at the self-righteous but not sufficiently self-aware backlash (people posting maps of Africa with instructions to indicate Uganda, but the maps are usually inaccurate), but that's probably because I haven't let myself be exposed to the almost certainly idiotic thing they're reacting to. On the balance of reasons, I probably don't need this shit in my life.
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