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658143 Posts in 9262 Topics by 3396 Members Latest Member: - vlozan86 Most online today: 60 - most online ever: 494 (Jul 01, 2007, 02:59:53 PM)
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Author Topic: Moon Bases Not Moon Lassos: New LOLConservatives Thread  (Read 12427 times)
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Babar
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Posts: 3305


« Reply #375 on: Feb 29, 2012, 04:13:39 AM »

Alright, it's just that

the above is a schema that applies to all systems of government. Except the libertarian one, because they don't have a theory of government proper, because they are fucking idiots.

is a moot point to me, just because something is widely accepted doesn't mean it shouldn't be scrutinized and then you call anyone that disagrees fucking idiots. I don't mind a government providing earthquake prediction programs or basic transport infrastructure, I don't even mind government providing airport security as long as they don't violate civil liberties. This is peanuts though when we're talking about the scope of government in America which the debate has always been about in these threads.
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cold before sunrise
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Posts: 2500


« Reply #376 on: Feb 29, 2012, 04:19:38 AM »

oh, mr. intentions, bless your heart for granting us your wisdom. i've heard it repeated on and on that babar doesn't understand the facts and that he should study economics but haven't seen anybody at all demonstrate how the current economic model is one to stand by except for chicken little-esque bleats - no surprise, since it's indefensible but for fear. if regulatory agencies are essential checks to things (eg. banking institutions and other corporations) running out of control then what do you call it when lobbyists for those very interests are allowed to purchase support and are (unbelievably!) appointed to their government-affiliated administrative posts? it only makes sense to me that the public would have greater input into their own affairs - perhaps through a co-operative agreement as jeb mentioned, a change of political structure. recreating the vision of what government looks like doesn't have to look like the creation of thunderdome, but progress as a modern civilization. one that doesn't depend on the violations of human rights, removal of privacy and needless warmongering that has been driven into us as essential to the future of civility. with all due respect, you're full of shit.
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Riding a tidal wave of whiskey on a surfboard made out of don't care.
Good Intentions
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Posts: 13882


« Reply #377 on: Feb 29, 2012, 04:28:39 AM »

Alright, it's just that

the above is a schema that applies to all systems of government. Except the libertarian one, because they don't have a theory of government proper, because they are fucking idiots.
is a moot point to me, just because something is widely accepted doesn't mean it shouldn't be scrutinized and then you call anyone that disagrees fucking idiots.
Well, yes, I might have gotten carried away. Good advice which I find no easier to follow than anyone else is not to write stuff while annoyed. But there is a disastrous streak of intellectual bankruptcy running through the contemporary libertarian movement. It's not bankrupt because I say so. It's bankrupt because of its disastrous ignorance and lack of interest of central results in the fields they look towards for answers.

The point of the post, Babar, is that you can't have earthquake prediction programmes without a government that is able to enforce a whole raft of things - the funding for the agency, for one thing - which you seem to view as denial of civil liberties. It can't be a denial of civil liberties to have to pay some taxes, because without the taxes there are social goods which simply aren't attainable, not without entirely changing the way goods get distributed, anyway (communists don't need taxes, but I suspect that's not what you had in mind).
« Last Edit: Feb 29, 2012, 04:30:43 AM by Good Intentions » Logged
Greg Nog
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Posts: 21629


« Reply #378 on: Feb 29, 2012, 07:25:23 AM »

The main debate between me and LPTJ has always been Paul vs. Obama.

A) no it hasn't, even though you keep trying to make that the debate

B) we do not have any election in the US where we have the choice to vote for one or the other of these two.  It's very likely we'll have to choose between Obama/Romney, or god help us Obama/Santorum, or any of these guys.  Paul versus Obama is not any more an election that's happening than Paul versus Television's Marquee Moon.
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Babar
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Posts: 3305


« Reply #379 on: Feb 29, 2012, 07:45:06 AM »

I didn't say it's an election that's happening, that has yet to be determined. But out of the pool of possible candidates within the two-party system, I like Paul and you like Obama so that has been the debate so far between me and LPTJ. We are all in agreement that Romney/Santorum/Gingrich are not viable options so there has been no debate there.
« Last Edit: Feb 29, 2012, 07:47:17 AM by Babar » Logged

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elpollodiablo
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Posts: 32624


« Reply #380 on: Feb 29, 2012, 07:49:02 AM »

I didn't say it's an election that's happening, that has yet to be determined.
Not for Paul it isn't. It was determined before he started.

But out of the pool of possible candidates within the two-party system, I like Paul and you like Obama so that has been the debate so far.
You mean in your narrow experience of American politics. It's actually not the debate anywhere else outside of Paul campaign stops.

We are all in agreement that Romney/Santorum/Gingrich are not viable options so there has been no debate there.

Except that Romney will be the guy against whom Obama is running, so that's where the debate actually lies.
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think 'on the road.'
Greg Nog
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Posts: 21629


« Reply #381 on: Feb 29, 2012, 08:04:39 AM »

I like Paul and you like Obama so that has been the debate so far between me and LPTJ.

This has not been happening, no.  You have been desperately trying to make that happen.  The rest of the people who think Paul sucks have been like "Paul sucks and here's why", not "Paul sucks and I love Obama".
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Babar
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Posts: 3305


« Reply #382 on: Feb 29, 2012, 08:12:46 AM »

Haha ok, at least I have been debating that Paul would be a better option than Obama and you guys have been very ferocious in pointing out that Paul wouldn't be a good option and that you like Obama better. From now on I'll be repping Gary Johnson, ok? He's pro-choice, has immigration policies consistent with his libertarian views, is not old and has no racism baggage. You guys might actually have to make a real argument this time. Just kidding Wink

x-post: Greg, exactly! Then I say "Yeah, Paul isn't perfect but he's a lot better than war-mongering Patriot Act-extending, NDAA-signing Obama who you support" and you guys go "Ummm... Paul sux". It's true I've have been desperately trying to make that happen but you always shy away from defending Obama or presenting him as a good option because it's very hard to do that. It's a lot easier to just focus on how the opposition is baaaaaad, which is what these lolconservatives threads are about, right?
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Greg Nog
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Posts: 21629


« Reply #383 on: Feb 29, 2012, 08:17:40 AM »

x-post: Greg, exactly! Then I say "Yeah, Paul isn't perfect but he's a lot better than war-mongering Patriot Act-extending, NDAA-signing Obama who you support" and you guys go "Ummm... Paul sux". It's true I've have been desperately trying to make that happen but you always shy away from defending Obama or presenting him as a good option because it's very hard to do that. It's a lot easier to just focus on how the opposition is baaaaaad, which is what these lolconservatives threads are about, right?

But they're not running against each other.  They never will be.  It makes no sense for us to compare them as politically-viable candidates because only one of them is.  What you're doing is Total Fantasy Politics.  Which!  Would be fun!  Except that I think more of us would be inclined to be like, "OKAY, how about Eisenhower versus Lincoln" or "What if The Rock killed Hitler".

And for the record I DO think The Rock could take Hitler in a fistfight
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Babar
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Posts: 3305


« Reply #384 on: Feb 29, 2012, 08:25:20 AM »

It only makes sense comparing a presidential candidate nominee with the incumbent president. In fact, it makes perfect sense. But alright then, Johnson is running against Obama so we can at least talk about that. He hasn't won the nomination of the LP yet so I guess I'm not allowed to compare him with Obama as of now.... Sad
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dieblucasdie
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Posts: 24493


« Reply #385 on: Feb 29, 2012, 09:05:36 AM »

You have been desperately trying to make that happen.  The rest of the people who think Paul sucks have been like "Paul sucks and here's why", not "Paul sucks and I love Obama".

Part of the reason for this miscommunication is that Babar was just straight-up concern-trolling. At first he was making the Greenwaldian argument of "Paul's commitment to ending American imperialism overseas is so critical that it's worth overlooking his other batshit positions."  But no, after like 10 pages of prodding, turns out Babar totally agrees with said batshit positions.  And now he's the one accusing people of arguing from bad faith. Babar should just STFU at this point.
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he was basically your only chance at making the world love you.
jebreject
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Posts: 27071


« Reply #386 on: Feb 29, 2012, 09:19:02 AM »

But guys SOMEONE has to take on the Obama-supporting hegemony that is LPTJ
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I'm not racist, I've got lots of black Facebook friends.
Babar
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Posts: 3305


« Reply #387 on: Feb 29, 2012, 09:21:16 AM »

You have been desperately trying to make that happen.  The rest of the people who think Paul sucks have been like "Paul sucks and here's why", not "Paul sucks and I love Obama".

Part of the reason for this miscommunication is that Babar was just straight-up concern-trolling. At first he was making the Greenwaldian argument of "Paul's commitment to ending American imperialism overseas is so critical that it's worth overlooking his other batshit positions."  But no, after like 10 pages of prodding, turns out Babar totally agrees with said batshit positions.  And now he's the one accusing people of arguing from bad faith. Babar should just STFU at this point.

Batshit is subjective. To me that's going to preemptive wars, drone bombing civilians, a war against drugs, selling weapons to Saudi Arabia, fondling people at airports, holding civilians in indefinite detention without due process. That, to me, is batshit crazy. So no, I will not STFU as much as you would like me to.
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dieblucasdie
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Posts: 24493


« Reply #388 on: Feb 29, 2012, 09:24:57 AM »

Right, but at the beginning you were agreeing that Ron Paul's non-foreign-policy positions were batshit, but nope, turns out you agree with him on basically every (every?) issue. That is concern-trolling, G.

"Are the dismantling of our public institutions, the possible creation of an entrenched plutocracy, and the loss of reproductive rights prices we should be willing to pay to save lives?" is an entirely different question from "Should we transition to a Randian paradise?" and you pretended for a good long while that we were having the first discussion and not the second. And now you're saying that we're the ones arguing from bad faith. STFU.
« Last Edit: Feb 29, 2012, 09:27:24 AM by dieblucasdie » Logged

he was basically your only chance at making the world love you.
dieblucasdie
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Posts: 24493


« Reply #389 on: Feb 29, 2012, 09:38:57 AM »

I mean, though I guess it's possible that you were just ill-informed on American domestic issues when this discussion started and you've spent the last couple weeks on reddit indoctrinating yourself

and again

Quote
fondling people at airports

Ron Paul is totally fine with forced ultrasounds, and so are you, Mr. "Leave It To the States"
« Last Edit: Feb 29, 2012, 09:40:38 AM by dieblucasdie » Logged

he was basically your only chance at making the world love you.
Babar
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Posts: 3305


« Reply #390 on: Feb 29, 2012, 09:45:45 AM »

Is this the part where I said RP's domestic issues are batshit?

But then there's the economic side and even though I believe in the free market I would be a fool to say that there's not a slightest possibility that it might not work out.

But I stress that I do believe in the free market and the probability of the USA with a president Paul turning into an ozploitation movie are decreasing towards zero.

Bringing up RP's foreign policy is just the easiest way to point out how absurd the current policy is. I never said I thought his economic policies were crazy. You're just making stuff up at this point, I love it.
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elpollodiablo
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Posts: 32624


« Reply #391 on: Feb 29, 2012, 09:47:31 AM »

I mean, though I guess it's possible that you were just ill-informed on American domestic issues when this discussion started and you've spent the last couple weeks on reddit indoctrinating yourself

and again

Quote
fondling people at airports

Ron Paul is totally fine with forced ultrasounds, and so are you, Mr. "Leave It To the States"

Seriously.
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think 'on the road.'
Greg Nog
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Posts: 21629


« Reply #392 on: Feb 29, 2012, 10:16:39 AM »

I don't really mind if Babar think Ron Paul's fantastic, I just bristle at the attempts to get me to defend Obama like I'm supposed to be rooting for one of two sports teams here.
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dieblucasdie
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Posts: 24493


« Reply #393 on: Feb 29, 2012, 10:18:32 AM »

Is this the part where I said RP's domestic issues are batshit?

But then there's the economic side and even though I believe in the free market I would be a fool to say that there's not a slightest possibility that it might not work out.

But I stress that I do believe in the free market and the probability of the USA with a president Paul turning into an ozploitation movie are decreasing towards zero.

Bringing up RP's foreign policy is just the easiest way to point out how absurd the current policy is. I never said I thought his economic policies were crazy. You're just making stuff up at this point, I love it.

Yeah, awesome, being disingenuous again. These quotes are from a full month after we first started having this fight, when you finally started to express yourself honestly. I guess if you really want me to I can go dig up quotes, but I'd rather you STFU
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he was basically your only chance at making the world love you.
Babar
Registered user

Posts: 3305


« Reply #394 on: Feb 29, 2012, 10:28:33 AM »

I mean, though I guess it's possible that you were just ill-informed on American domestic issues when this discussion started and you've spent the last couple weeks on reddit indoctrinating yourself

and again

Quote
fondling people at airports

Ron Paul is totally fine with forced ultrasounds, and so are you, Mr. "Leave It To the States"

Seriously.

I like how you conveniently ignored all the truly horrific stuff I mentioned. Trying to appeal to emotion doesn't really work when the candidate you support condones drone bombing civilians. A forced ultrasound is a terrible violation of civil liberty and, as I've said before, of course I oppose it. I still think there should be strict constraints on federal power and that the states could for the most part govern themselves. People would get more invested in state politics because it would matter a lot more and there would be less oppression of the minority and less concentrated corruption in DC. I like how Gary Johnson puts it:

Quote
I believe in states' rights. 50 laboratories of best practice which in my opinion, since we're so competitive, would actually produce better education. We'd emulate the success and we would do anything we could do to avoid the failure and there would be failure, but as opposed to Washington top down knows best? That's why we're bankrupt. That's why we're borrowing 43 cents out of every dollar that we're spending

edit: ok, here's what I said right when we started this argument:

Yeah, his views on abortion is backwards, but so is all the others republican candidates, I also don't like his views on gun-ownership but I don't like the bear arms amendment anyway.

I still stand by that (although learning about US militia might change my opinion on the 2nd, haven't made up my mind yet). I also said

This doesn't have to end our internet friendship or anything but my basic political philosophy is less government intervention and more individual liberty and a fortunate result of that is lower taxes.

I still stand by that, also the part about our internet friendship. But I NEVER said I thought his economic or domestic policies were batshit, that's your imagination.
« Last Edit: Feb 29, 2012, 10:40:28 AM by Babar » Logged

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elpollodiablo
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Posts: 32624


« Reply #395 on: Feb 29, 2012, 10:40:17 AM »

Do you realize that proposed invasive ultrasound procedures ARE A FUCKING ACTUAL EXAMPLE OF STATES GOVERNING THEMSELVES? So like, poor women in Virginia and Alabama should vote with their feet & wallets and just move on over to a more enlightened state?
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think 'on the road.'
elpollodiablo
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Posts: 32624


« Reply #396 on: Feb 29, 2012, 10:43:45 AM »

Also dude don't you ever sleep? Smile
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think 'on the road.'
Babar
Registered user

Posts: 3305


« Reply #397 on: Feb 29, 2012, 10:45:17 AM »

Do I really have to bring up an example of the federal government doing something abhorrent to counter that? Yes, I realize some states would end up making bad decisions but those decisions would only affect one state. When bad decisions are made at the federal level it affects 50 states.

hehe good point, I've had weird sleeping patterns lately.
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Thermofusion
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Posts: 10000


« Reply #398 on: Feb 29, 2012, 10:50:39 AM »

Fuck, y'all went in hard this morning. Buncha young go-hards
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edison
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Posts: 4837


« Reply #399 on: Feb 29, 2012, 10:56:31 AM »

Paul versus Television's Marquee Moon.

Now that is a debate we need to have
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