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657786 Posts in 9259 Topics by 3396 Members Latest Member: - vlozan86 Most online today: 68 - most online ever: 494 (Jul 01, 2007, 02:59:53 PM)
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Author Topic: Arch Enemy and suicide  (Read 8185 times)
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Andrew_TSKS
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Posts: 39426


« on: Jul 31, 2005, 04:45:32 PM »

FUCK YES. this article nails it. i relate to the whole thing so dramatically that i suddenly want to listen to arch enemy even though i a) have barely heard them and wasn't very impressed when i did, and b) i haven't felt suicidal for more than an hour at a time since march or so (which is really good, for me).

two specific comments for john:

1) i think part of the reason that the drive for suicide feels better is because, once you've decided to do it, you "know" that all the bullshit that is making you hate life no longer has to be dealt with. behind on bills? about to get the power turned off? fuck it, i'll be DEAD by then! it's the bitterest form of relief possible, but it is a relief.

at least, that's how it always was for me.

2) if you haven't heard the gehenna (the american gehenna, not the scandinavian or german ones) album "negotium perambulans in tenebris", i highly recommend that you hunt it down. it may sound nothing like arch enemy (i'm really not sure), but it definitely feels the same as what you're describing in the article: the catharsis of a new pain, the way punching a brick wall feels good precisely because it hurts. check it out.

p.s.--i'm really glad i lived, too.
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I just want to be myself and I want you to love me for who I am.
G.C.R
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« Reply #1 on: Jul 31, 2005, 08:37:48 PM »

What I really hated when I felt like that was people saying "you are not alone in feeling like this" (some fucking help when you got your method and time of death all well organised) but now that I'm not quite at that point it is a good thing to know. Thank you John. (not just for the article but also for recording the album that kept me going. I hope you don't mind me saying that.)
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I think it's fair to assume we'll be inebriated and covered in bodily effluvia all weekend
John
edit0r
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« Reply #2 on: Jul 31, 2005, 08:47:55 PM »

Quote from: "G.C.R"
What I really hated when I felt like that was people saying "you are not alone in feeling like this" (some fucking help when you got your method and time of death all well organised) but now that I'm not quite at that point it is a good thing to know. Thank you John. (not just for the article but also for recording the album that kept me going. I hope you don't mind me saying that.)


'sall love man, glad you made it
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Danen
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Posts: 642


« Reply #3 on: Jul 31, 2005, 11:07:33 PM »

Thank you for this, John.  I went through a crazy severe episode four years ago this fall and what I felt was EXACTLY what you describe. I find that I'm very careful not to repeat any of the actions that led to those problems, that I try to avoid the places, people and situations that were a part of my life when I was so down.

One exception:

Part of what got me through was Alexander "Skip" Spence's "Oar." I was flipping out in downtown Kansas City and wandered into a Streetside records in Westport and was drawn to the CD, though I had no prior plans of buying it. At that point I couldn't imagine myself going back home or doing anything other than something very bad.   I listened to that album and I swear to God like a guardian angel all that pain and love seeped through my speakers and put me back on the road.    Every time I hear it now it's a reminder and a relief - I continue to love that thing. This article sincerely touched me and reminded me of what music can do, and that people who say "dark music" only brings one down further couldn't be any more wrong, at least not for some people.

Anyway, sorry to be so melodramatic or whatever. Thanks for writing this John.
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Andrew_TSKS
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Posts: 39426


« Reply #4 on: Aug 01, 2005, 03:24:11 AM »

wow, i've been listening to that same skip spence cd (and tim buckley's "starsailor", and jandek's "blue corpse", all of which are related in my perception) a lot this week. synchronicity!

it is a truly great album.
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I just want to be myself and I want you to love me for who I am.
Danen
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« Reply #5 on: Aug 01, 2005, 09:39:16 AM »

Yeah Andrew that IS weird - I've had Buckley's "Blue Afternoon" and "Starsailor" each on at least once in the last week.  I don't have to tell you about "Blue Corpse" (that's another thread) but you're so very right - those albums DO fit together like a glove.

My all time favorite "I feel bad and I need catharsis" album is "Children of God" by Swans. "The sex in your soul will damn you to hell!!!" / "This is my life, my choice my sacrifice - I must kill the child, kill the child, kill the child." all sung like Gira put a gun at his head but wasn't sure whether to fire it at himself or the nearest person to him. God Gira is the king of visceral - now he plays folk lwith the same intensity - gut wrenching acoustic stuff - apocalyptic yet soothing.  I find it all immensely freeing.
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G.C.R
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« Reply #6 on: Aug 02, 2005, 05:03:27 AM »

Gee! I been listening to "Blue Afternoon" of recent too. Its more of a sex album for me than anything else though.
Thankyou John, I am also glad I made it.
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I think it's fair to assume we'll be inebriated and covered in bodily effluvia all weekend
difficult
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Posts: 2175


« Reply #7 on: Aug 02, 2005, 09:59:02 PM »

All those records (cept Swans) get played a ridiculous amount around here... Maybe there should be some kind of list of Depressing or Sad Music Recommended for Dealing With these kinds of situations... like "The Surgeon General has deemed it mandatory for all depressed people to go to the State Funded Worldwide Jandek tour"
Oh Hang on you guys don't have that kind of a healthcare system over there do you? Well actually we do have a healthcare system here in NZ, and I think it would still be struggle to have mandatory jandek concerts funded by it.
Although we have just had a Govt-funded anti depression campaign started. Maybe they should send out a CD with it?
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Danen
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« Reply #8 on: Aug 02, 2005, 10:39:32 PM »

LoL! If your government sponsored a Jandek tour in NZ as a possible cure for depression and sent out a "care package" cd containing Arch Enemy, Joy Division (gotta add them in), Janky, Tim Buckley and Skip Spence 99.97% of your population would probably hold a revolution and topple the government.

On the other hand, .03% of depressives would feel much better thank you.
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difficult
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« Reply #9 on: Aug 03, 2005, 10:05:51 PM »

But you've gotta take a long term view - Maybe now people would riot over it, but in 3 or 4 generations, Jandek would be viewed a one of the more potent tools in the battle against mental illness - and one of the breakthrough treatments in coming to terms with an otherwise confusing condition medically.
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Your choke chain collars remind me of summer laughter
convensive
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« Reply #10 on: Aug 04, 2005, 05:27:35 PM »

"i'm going to take you off the 'Blue Corpse' and put you on something a little stronger... NURSE! Get this patient some 'Worthless Recluse'! Stat!... "
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Andrew_TSKS
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Posts: 39426


« Reply #11 on: Aug 10, 2005, 03:24:31 AM »

so i really started this topic to talk about "music to contemplate suicide to" more than anything else, but i wanted to mention that today i checked out arch enemy's new album, "doomsday machine", on the strength of this review. it rules. so thanks for that, john.
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I just want to be myself and I want you to love me for who I am.
John
edit0r
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« Reply #12 on: Aug 10, 2005, 08:42:40 AM »

I am so stoked that you liked it! I always worry that people are gonna buy something I praise & then go "what! but this is melodic death metal!" or something
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Andrew_TSKS
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« Reply #13 on: Aug 10, 2005, 11:17:45 AM »

hahaha. rest assured that will never be me having that reaction.
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I just want to be myself and I want you to love me for who I am.
octobre
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Posts: 91


« Reply #14 on: Aug 11, 2005, 01:36:36 PM »

if you're not adverse to reading another comic book in october, remind me to lend you a few select issues of michael chabon's the escapist this time around.  there's a couple of great ones that tackle suicide.
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jordanmichael
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« Reply #15 on: Aug 13, 2005, 11:05:59 PM »

Quote
I'm less sure about whether that feeling suicides get - of control, of power, of being close to God - is delusional or, y'know, visionary.


Exactly.

While my suicide music tends to be more Brian Wilson and Jeff Mangum based, I can still relate. And yes, like Andrew, I am glad I lived, even though for a long time, until pretty recently, I wasn't. It is one of those things where you are glad you experienced and lived because now you can look back on it and look at it is a save point. You can't start from behind that spot again. It is also nice to know somebody feels similar. Thanks.
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Ah_Pook
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Posts: 6082


« Reply #16 on: Aug 14, 2005, 01:45:37 AM »

i liked the article on the real, but seriously

arch enemy is bad shit





yknow, in my opinion
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Blame it on the boys who keep hitting on you
discardedflare
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« Reply #17 on: Sep 29, 2005, 02:23:22 PM »

The people who knew about my attempts were fond of saying it was a good thing I didn't succeed. When is it ever a good thing not to succeed at anything you're trying really hard and hoping to achieve?
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Andrew_TSKS
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« Reply #18 on: Sep 29, 2005, 02:34:41 PM »

i can answer that!

when you don't really want to be dead, you just want life to be better and feel like it'd be harder to fix shit than to take yourself out. better to calm down, face up to the problems that confront you, and take your best shot at working through them, rather than succeeding in the ultimate copout.

granted, this isn't always the reason people attempt/commit suicide. but the vast majority of the time, it is.
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I just want to be myself and I want you to love me for who I am.
discardedflare
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« Reply #19 on: Sep 30, 2005, 10:34:29 AM »

On this article's topic, actually preferring the pain, I think I operate on the keep-your-friends-close-and-your-enemies-closer principle. When the pain's there, I know where it is. I know it's not going to blindside me. It's not going to kill me when my life is sweetest, to coin a phrase. When I'm feeling good, I'm uneasy. I know the pain is coming; I just don't know when or where, or what will trigger it.

Andrew, do you see a difference between being too hard to fix and believing it can't be fixed? Between a copout and acceptance?
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stephanie
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Posts: 1913


« Reply #20 on: Sep 30, 2005, 12:51:19 PM »

(from http://www.lastplanetojakarta.com/archives/2005/07/escape_hatch.php)
Quote
Arch Enemy make me remember what it was that held my hand when it was too dark to see the way forward: it was music, music that wasn't afraid to just wail in the dark.


Quote from: "discardedflare"
On this article's topic, actually preferring the pain, I think I operate on the keep-your-friends-close-and-your-enemies-closer principle. When the pain's there, I know where it is. I know it's not going to blindside me. It's not going to kill me when my life is sweetest, to coin a phrase. When I'm feeling good, I'm uneasy. I know the pain is coming; I just don't know when or where, or what will trigger it.


I know nothing about Arch Enemy, nor do I imagine I'd particularly like them, and suicide is a bit of a touchy subject for yrs truly, but I will say that the above quotes are OTM.
And here's where it gets uber-weird, maybe a little too personal:  I think that if someone truly in-the-guts, seriously, actually wants to die forever and ever amen, they're going to do something super-dramatic and very likely to succeed (throwing yrself off a 30-story building, etc.), and thus their chance of surviving will decrease exponentially.  Which isn't to say that everyone who tries shooting themselves in the face after doing all the research and coming to the conclusion that it's going to be lethal is quite aware of what will happen/what to do if it doesn't work, nor that everyone who downs a bottle of Tylenol because they failed their midterms is going to know that an acetaminophen overdose may well cause massive (unplanned) organ failure that could lead to death or lifelong dialysis, but just -- I think you're going to be looking for something absolutely failsafe so you're not just giving yourself another reason to be disappointed in yourself and your actions.
It may sound callous, but if someone is still hemming and hawing over the notion of extinguishing themselves from the face of the earth forever, they're just gonna take a couple swigs of Pine Sol or cut their wrists horizontally or something else relatively noncommital, because they're scared or impetuous, neither of which is a good attitude to embark upon your final journey with.

I've had serious problems with depression for 16 years and have never "tried" to die.  I know what it's like to want to die but to be too tired to do anything except lock myself in my apartment for two weeks, forgetting how to eat, sleep or speak.  I know what it's like to die but to freak myself out of it well in advance pondering the notions of FOREVER and NOTHINGNESS (I'm not much for indecision and uncertainty).  I do not, however, know what it is like to really want to die, wholly and without reservation, because I've never tried killing myself, and I've never tried killing myself because if I did, you'd be goddamned sure I'd succeed, and that simple fact alone has scared me out of it the small handful of times I've been sitting on that edge.

And after a couple decades of abject misery, mostly chemical, familial and self-imposed, I spent five days with my all-time favourite band in their homeland and was suddenly and magically unable to want to die for the first time ever.  No, really.  It ended up being scarily simple and I'm glad I never did anything rash because I had my head too far up my own ass for 20+ years to appreciate my life for being the beautiful, terrible, absolutely insane and above all unique thing it is.  For continuing to be.
Hurricane Katrina cleaned up the remnants of my nauseating self-pity by reminding me that nothing's ever that bad (until it is, at which point you will just have to deal), and the human spirit's remarkable will to continue forward is usually just confused or misguided if you lose it one day.  Nothing is forever except death (and bad decisions, but fuck, everyone makes 'em, and people have lived -- and wanted to -- with much, much worse).  So we go.

Phew.  Sorry.

A good person to listen to so as to not feel alone in your darkest hours was always Elliott Smith.  Still is, actually, as I'm not half as inclined or willing to believe he took himself off the earth as a lot of other folks are.
Candy Butchers' Hang On Mike is (albeit predictably, if you know the circumstances the venerable Mr. Viola wrote under/about/around) excellent as well; I could listen to "Unexpected Traffic" all fucking day and still be moved to (indescribably appreciative) tears every time.
Counting Crows' Recovering the Satellites has pulled me through more hard times than any other album.  beautiful freak by eels.  Most of my all-time favourite records have found their way onto the "best ever" list because they've patched up the holes in my heart I couldn't survive with alone.

I do not know why I am thinking about this when am I leaving for the airport to see my best friends in 2 hours, when I have piles of work to do, stacks of emails to respond to, bills to pay, etc.

Soz, again.  Don't know why I felt the need to unleash that torrent upon unsuspecting LPTJers.

Off to New York!
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Andrew_TSKS
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Posts: 39426


« Reply #21 on: Sep 30, 2005, 03:20:10 PM »

Quote from: "discardedflare"
Andrew, do you see a difference between being too hard to fix and believing it can't be fixed? Between a copout and acceptance?


well, as far as that goes, "too hard to fix" and "believing it can't be fixed" are both just constructs of one's own mind. a lot of times in life, society or authority figures or whatever give us standards that we feel we have to live up to, and we restrict ourselves to those standards just because we feel we have to. why do we feel that way? well, if we really examine it we might just find that we've absorbed whatever standards have been fed to us all of our lives, and are now unable to conceive of a life lived outside of those standards as worth living. but at the end of the day, all of those standards are illusory. at the end of the day, as long as you stay alive, that's all that matters. failing to meet standards others have set for your life does not end your life, nor does it invalidate it.

to bring this down to a concrete example: if you were sitting one day at a suit and tie office job, and you were hating it so bad that you felt like you couldn't take it for one more minute, yet you were worried that you wouldn't make rent if you left it... well, that doesn't mean you CAN'T get up and leave. you just don't want to face the consequences. dilemmas like that (i'm oversimplifying, but it serves the purpose) are the ones that tend to drive people to suicide. "i can't STAND to keep doing what i'm doing, but i CAN'T just quit!" well, you can always quit.and isn't suicide just quitting, but not getting to enjoy it?

ultimately, the point i'm trying to make is that "it's too hard to fix this" is a lie one tells oneself when one is afraid to consider other methods of repair besides the ones already attempted. anything that a person considers suicide over can be fixed in another way.
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coldforge
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« Reply #22 on: Sep 30, 2005, 06:44:49 PM »

Quote from: "Andrew_TSKS"
a whole bunch of on-the-level knowledge dropping


i agree with this post!

Ain't no such thing as too far gone, too broke to fix, etc, because there ain't no such thing as 'broke'. There's live and there's not live. Let's say you're in a lot of pain; there are ways to not be in such pain. Straight up, there just are. Don't know your specific situation, don't care. It's possible to get better, and hell it might be really simple. That said(how many depressed people did I just piss off?), it might be really, really fucking hard. Often what needs to be done is a very simple, easily stated thing, and most often the simple shit is by far the hardest to do. Hardest, in concrete terms, as in requires the most courage, determination, discipline, and energy from you, the human being.

This is not me saying that if you're depressed or suicidal, it's because you're weak. I don't care how weak or strong you are; hell, I don't think those are very useful terms at all. But I will go ahead and say that we sometimes choose the easier path. Even though the easier path is in the long run, or in the very very short run (like the time between pulling the trigger and not having a head anymore), less healthy for you. We choose the easier path, and we choose it for a reason. Not because we have no choice, or because our hand has been forced, or because of the demons of our upbringing, our Catholicism, our mental defects, our job. We can be pushed, and are pushed, pushed very far, but we always make the choice. That is the one thing, I think, that everyone must acknowledge. You can do whatever kinda fucked up shit you want to yourself, but only if you can look yourself—and if you don't respect yourself, then your parents, or your best friend, or your dog—in the eyeballs and tell you/them that this is you, choosing it, and fuck that too broke to fix shit.

Now personally I think that 'keep your enemies et cetera' stuff is a load of malarkey, but I don't know you, and you're not my concern, or my field of expertise, so I can't touch you.
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jebreject
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Posts: 27071


« Reply #23 on: Sep 30, 2005, 09:39:36 PM »

I have interesting things to say regarding this topic as I just spent the last eightteen or so hours in the mental unit of a local hospital, but in a few minutes I have to leave to go home to attend my friend Chad's wedding, so I don't think I'll be saying them tonight.
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Good Intentions
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« Reply #24 on: Oct 01, 2005, 07:38:56 AM »

I must add that knowing that something is about to really fall off the rails is no consolation at all, and does very little to mitigate the shock. Especially if you fight tooth and nail to avert said disaster, and cannot succeed. That is what is making my current slump as deep as it is.
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