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657939 Posts in 9260 Topics by 3396 Members Latest Member: - vlozan86 Most online today: 61 - most online ever: 494 (Jul 01, 2007, 02:59:53 PM)
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Author Topic: in a furious anger i have not known before in my life...  (Read 7040 times)
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jordanmichael
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« Reply #50 on: Sep 28, 2005, 03:38:52 PM »

okay. i'm not trying to blaze any trails in contemporary art. like i said, i just wanna do stuff for me and the people i wanna share it with. i guess you can call it a sculture. i am not really "sculpting" anything. there is the giant cumbersome box, like my head which i have always been self conscious about, and wire hangers cut into segments for hair. i dunno how it'll turn out. i'll have to work on it when i'm not neurotic about it, and it is premediated.
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dieblucasdie
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« Reply #51 on: Sep 28, 2005, 03:40:48 PM »

"sculture" should be a new buzzword.
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John
edit0r
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« Reply #52 on: Sep 28, 2005, 03:56:08 PM »

Jordan can you not take pleasure in learning how to do things that you wouldn't normally, instinctively know how to do? Or, to be more pointed about it, don't you find it fun to rise to a challenge, like the one posed by your teacher: learn to sketch before working, even if it's not how you'd normally do it?

 I'm of the belief that there's value in learning a discipline whether it gives one pleasure or not - it was technique, not instinct, that taught me how to write lyrics. I generally agree with Good Intentions here; counterexamples abound, of course (primitive art, which is some of my favorite stuff, being the great big posterboy for the opposing case), but the Dadaists? All of them classically trained, fully conversant with the schools they opposed. Ditto the abstract expressionists. Ditto, most importantly here, Jack Kirby & Steve Ditko & George Perez and Neil Gaiman and any other comic artist you might wanna name. Art is more than the pleasure of doing art; it's also the breadth of itself. Learning how to do what you don't plan to do: well, it's of value, I say.

The defaced "Starry Night" I must add is excellent.
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DCDave
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« Reply #53 on: Sep 28, 2005, 03:57:38 PM »

One of my favorite things about art is how much Cubism was influenced by African statuary. I kinda love it.
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John
edit0r
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« Reply #54 on: Sep 28, 2005, 03:58:43 PM »

key Donald Justice line about art: "the love that masquerades as pure technique," probably my favorite definition anywhere
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TheVole
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Posts: 560


« Reply #55 on: Sep 28, 2005, 04:04:32 PM »

Quote from: "DCDave"
One of my favorite things about art is how much Cubism was influenced by African statuary. I kinda love it.

I misread that initially and thought it said "African stationery."

"From the desk of... Africa."
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jordanmichael
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« Reply #56 on: Sep 28, 2005, 04:06:42 PM »

Quote from: "John"
Jordan can you not take pleasure in learning how to do things that you wouldn't normally, instinctively know how to do? Or, to be more pointed about it, don't you find it fun to rise to a challenge, like the one posed by your teacher: learn to sketch before working, even if it's not how you'd normally do it?

 I'm of the belief that there's value in learning a discipline whether it gives one pleasure or not - it was technique, not instinct, that taught me how to write lyrics. I generally agree with Good Intentions here; counterexamples abound, of course (primitive art, which is some of my favorite stuff, being the great big posterboy for the opposing case), but the Dadaists? All of them classically trained, fully conversant with the schools they opposed. Ditto the abstract expressionists. Ditto, most importantly here, Jack Kirby & Steve Ditko & George Perez and Neil Gaiman and any other comic artist you might wanna name. Art is more than the pleasure of doing art; it's also the breadth of itself. Learning how to do what you don't plan to do: well, it's of value, I say.

The defaced "Starry Night" I must add is excellent.


i have issues with sketching stuff out before i do it mostly because i am sketching stuff out and not doing it. i feel that if i am not in the mood of what i am doing i am not doing it justice. an example will follow in a moment. if a technique can be applied to this example, please somebody let me know.
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TheVole
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« Reply #57 on: Sep 28, 2005, 04:08:35 PM »

maybe you should be making maquettes.
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jordanmichael
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« Reply #58 on: Sep 28, 2005, 04:14:32 PM »

i have been working on this for a year and a half-ish. i was pissed off to no extent at my best friend, but looking back on it, it wasn't really his fault, but that is up for debate. so i was angry, and when i am angry or depressed i can't write. i dunno why, i just can't. i can't really do anything. it is a really crippling emotion. i went in my basement to just find something to vent. anything. i figured if worse comes to worse i can punch the exposed dry wall and scream and nobody will hear me. i find a hammer and just start hitting this giant piece of wood with it. at the time i also drank about a dozen diet pepsis a day. in my basement was also a giant garbage bag full of empty cans to be recycled. i hit those too. just the giant bag. i like the fact that i can hit something and see it's affect. everyone says to hit a pillow, but when you git a pillow it just gives in. it doesn't struggle, and then it goes back to how it was. i wanted to hit something and be able to tell i hate it. after a while i just put the two together. i grabbed some nails and nailed a few cans on the wood. then i started nailing the tops. now i have this. these are huge, i warn you. you only get a few sides of the wood too.





major theme or concept? sometimes when your a teenager and frustrated you just need to hit shit with a hammer. seriously.

"i think dan should really go fuck himself"
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DCDave
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« Reply #59 on: Sep 28, 2005, 04:17:19 PM »

Now if you were to treat that piece of wood as your sketch could you go back and create a similarly themed piece that might have more formalized thought put into it? I'm not saying that you should, just that that might be one approach to gratify your teachers.

Edit: That is to say that sketches, to you, might be more aptly described as prototypes.
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SPACERACE
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« Reply #60 on: Sep 28, 2005, 04:19:47 PM »

It's tough to re-create a theme when the theme is something inherently spontaneous, and even harder to put "formalized thought" into something of that nature.
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TheVole
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« Reply #61 on: Sep 28, 2005, 04:22:23 PM »

Quote from: "DCDave"

That is to say that sketches, to you, might be more aptly described as prototypes.
or "maquettes"
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jordanmichael
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« Reply #62 on: Sep 28, 2005, 04:23:45 PM »

Quote from: "DCDave"
Now if you were to treat that piece of wood as your sketch could you go back and create a similarly themed piece that might have more formalized thought put into it? I'm not saying that you should, just that that might be one approach to gratify your teachers.

Edit: That is to say that sketches, to you, might be more aptly described as prototypes.


the thing about that is the piece "i think dan should really go fuck himself" is that as corny as it sounds i really do think a piece of me is in it. i have been taking so long to work on it because i kept running out of supplies for it, but mostly because i would only work on it when i was frustrated with where my life was going or just frustrated in my life. i would sit down in front of it and just vent. at the time i started i was venting my jealousy towards dan. he is really musical, more attractive, more intelligent, and every female i would have feelings for would fawn over him. yes, it is stupid teenage drama, but it really bothered me. now i am sitting in front of it hitting it because i am frustrated that i can't really connect with people in my school and how my art teacher treats me and talks to me like i am some kid taking the class for an easy grade. the point is that when i step away from the work i don't feel frustrated anymore, because i really do think that frustration is in the work instead of me now.
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DCDave
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« Reply #63 on: Sep 28, 2005, 04:25:58 PM »

Quote from: "Vole"
Quote from: "DCDave"

That is to say that sketches, to you, might be more aptly described as prototypes.
or "maquettes"


Or that.
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Wally
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« Reply #64 on: Sep 28, 2005, 04:31:14 PM »

Quote from: "John"

 I'm of the belief that there's value in learning a discipline whether it gives one pleasure or not - it was technique, not instinct, that taught me how to write lyrics.


I suspect you'll decline to answer this but...how is the technique of writing lyrics learnt, I'm intending to do it myself nor am I suggesting there is no technique, I'm simply curious about how someone goes about it. Is it a combination of learning the techniques behind prose and combining them with the stylistic disiplines of poetry, or is it more along the lines of working on a piece of music. Does that make sense.

This question goes to all you lyricsmiths out there not just John.


EDIT- Actually everyone else answer it because I remember someone saying that there's nothing duller then a writer talking about how he writes.
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John
edit0r
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« Reply #65 on: Sep 28, 2005, 04:33:42 PM »

reese I think you're over-privileging spontaneity as some Ultimate Goal Of Art (this incidentally is why I hate the twentieth century - too much "spontaneous = real" claptrap). at the same time, I'm a creature of that century too - I just listened to the Atheist demos, and the raw energy of a demo is something I certainly feel in my bones. But you should concede that there's considerable value in craft, because there is, and that's the verdict of most artists who ever lived. (This includes Kerouac, who wrote a rough draft of "On the Road" and then fudged the truth about it because "it came direct from the heart!" sells like hotcakes.) DC Dave is right: call the earlier thing a prototype, and then do something new with it - art need not be born of immediate emotion. Indeed, one definition of art is "emotion recollected in tranquility" (Wordsworth's, and more complicated than that, but that's the kernel). So, see what your now-not-pissed-off mind can do with the visible, tangible evidence of the older outrage.
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TheVole
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« Reply #66 on: Sep 28, 2005, 04:37:01 PM »

or you could just do a performance art piece called "stab dan in the fucking throat."



(and then have wally dispose of the body.)
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Wally
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« Reply #67 on: Sep 28, 2005, 04:38:28 PM »

Quote from: "Vole"
or you could just do a performance art piece called "stab dan in the fucking throat."



(and then have wally dispose of the body.)


Yeah I could do that.

Just for kicks. 8)
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jordanmichael
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« Reply #68 on: Sep 28, 2005, 04:39:31 PM »

i have to ask this, but why? i love the way this turned out, and to do it again without feeling it again would just be doing it again without my emotions embedded into it. i guess i kinda don't see the point.
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DCDave
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« Reply #69 on: Sep 28, 2005, 04:45:04 PM »

Quote from: "jordanmichael"
i have to ask this, but why? i love the way this turned out, and to do it again without feeling it again would just be doing it again without my emotions embedded into it. i guess i kinda don't see the point.


Because art isn't just for you to express your emotions through? While that piece may have a lot of emotional investment and meaning for you, without a title or explanation, the casual viewer would simply see soda-can tabs hammered into a piece of wood.
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SPACERACE
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« Reply #70 on: Sep 28, 2005, 04:48:12 PM »

Oh, there's definitely something to be said for techinical abilities, and they're something I really wish I had. That said though, I take a pretty broad term of "art", i.e. I don't think that it's something that can be created by only a few gifted individuals with this pallate of skills. I think it's something that can be created by anyone that feels... anything, really.

Really, at the end of the day, I would rather look at a ridiculous painting that was done by someone who isn't an "artist" but that really does capture an impressive amount of emotion than a perfect sfumato oil painting of a sailboat in an orange and purple sunset.

but I agree that the best art comes from taking a cooled (maybe distanced?) look at something very heated.
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jordanmichael
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« Reply #71 on: Sep 28, 2005, 04:50:02 PM »

Quote from: "reeseboisse"
Oh, there's definitely something to be said for techinical abilities, and they're something I really wish I had. That said though, I take a pretty broad term of "art", i.e. I don't think that it's something that can be created by only a few gifted individuals with this pallate of skills. I think it's something that can be created by anyone that feels... anything, really.

Really, at the end of the day, I would rather look at a ridiculous painting that was done by someone who isn't an "artist" but that really does capture an impressive amount of emotion than a perfect sfumato oil painting of a sailboat in an orange and purple sunset.


100%
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TheVole
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« Reply #72 on: Sep 28, 2005, 04:52:45 PM »

Quote from: "reeseboisse"
I don't think that it's something that can be created by only a few gifted individuals with this pallate of skills.

Frankly, anyone can learn the skills to create representational art.  They are mechanical skills and if you devote yourself to it, it can be done.  Not much giftedness needed.
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jordanmichael
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« Reply #73 on: Sep 28, 2005, 04:52:57 PM »

Quote from: "DCDave"
Quote from: "jordanmichael"
i have to ask this, but why? i love the way this turned out, and to do it again without feeling it again would just be doing it again without my emotions embedded into it. i guess i kinda don't see the point.


Because art isn't just for you to express your emotions through? While that piece may have a lot of emotional investment and meaning for you, without a title or explanation, the casual viewer would simply see soda-can tabs hammered into a piece of wood.



but that's the thing, that is what it is. it is a bunch of soda-can tabs nailed to a piece of wood. i can't think of anything else i want it to be. it is my feelings as they came out naturally. here: look at it. it isn't supposed to look like anything besides how it came out of me. i can understand redoing paintins: the colors are not used properly. i can understand redoing drawings: the eyes are not even, the legs are too small. i can understand rewriting: i am constantly rewriting the dialogue, the plot, how i phrase things. my entire writing process is rewriting since i don't write any stories chronologically.

i can't see the point in redoing it. it isn't supposed to look like one set thing so why redo it? it would just look like itself, except without an emotional attachment to it.
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SPACERACE
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« Reply #74 on: Sep 28, 2005, 04:54:45 PM »

Quote from: "Vole"
Quote from: "reeseboisse"
I don't think that it's something that can be created by only a few gifted individuals with this pallate of skills.

Frankly, anyone can learn the skills to create representational art.  They are mechanical skills and if you devote yourself to it, it can be done.  Not much giftedness needed.

Yes, but there are some people that just *are* better than others, and it's tough (not to mention frustrating) to start from a lower plateu.
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