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657918 Posts in 9260 Topics by 3396 Members Latest Member: - vlozan86 Most online today: 65 - most online ever: 494 (Jul 01, 2007, 02:59:53 PM)
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Author Topic: neutral milk hotel demos  (Read 41745 times)
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Ah_Pook
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Posts: 6082


« Reply #25 on: Nov 30, 2005, 11:01:52 PM »

send them all to me john, i'll be your max brod
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RavingLunatic
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Posts: 6408


« Reply #26 on: Nov 30, 2005, 11:03:29 PM »

Quote from: "John"

people essentially turned up at his house uninvited to share the joy of their fanhood with him

like, a lot



Okay, I agree that that's bullshit for sure.
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John
edit0r
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Posts: 10925


« Reply #27 on: Nov 30, 2005, 11:05:13 PM »

Quote from: "Ah_Pook"
send them all to me john, i'll be your max brod


I will send you the videotape of me taking a sledgehammer to 'em

the thing is, this woman seems like a nice person, I'm not attributing any malice to her - she's sharing warm personal memories, gotta feel good. As usual with me and my obscurity/privacy hobbyhorse, it's the people who'll listen whose actions I want to interrogate. Are these songs your business? Do you have a right - not a legal right, but a moral right - to hear these? I personally say "fuck no" - just 'cause somebody makes something available to you doesn't mean it's your business.
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Mesmerize
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Posts: 420


« Reply #28 on: Nov 30, 2005, 11:06:09 PM »

Okay to get ideas on tape, got it.  I just don't really see why people would want to keep music private.  what are they afraid of?  who cares if a bunch of people on the internet are listening to (and loving) a bunch of stupid ideas for songs you had before you were famous?  who is it hurting?
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rockmeamadeus
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Posts: 7199


« Reply #29 on: Nov 30, 2005, 11:06:15 PM »

Quote from: "Mesmerize"
If he didnt' want anyone to hear the songs he shouldn't have recorded them.


I call bullshit on this statement and strike it from the records.

It's a damned tape he recorded some songs on to.

Why is this such a fetish with musicans? You don't see napkins that Jack Kerouac scrawled football scores on, or a note Hemingway or Picasso jotted to their maids, being made so much of.

I really think this is the equivilant of someone selling a pair of pants that Monet painted in and got random paint streaks all over. Monet leaves them at some chicks house one day, 30 years later their on the auction block. In that it's bullshit and disrespect for the artist.
(This is a fictional scenario... but my point has been made.)
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Greg Nog
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Posts: 21629


« Reply #30 on: Nov 30, 2005, 11:07:41 PM »

Quote from: "rockmeamadeus"
or a note Hemingway or Picasso jotted to their maids, being made so much of.


Actually, yeah, I'm pretty sure I've seen news stories about Picasso's doodles selling for thousands of dollars.
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Ah_Pook
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Posts: 6082


« Reply #31 on: Nov 30, 2005, 11:08:53 PM »

i would think its more like peole being interested in sketches by famous artists. and people are, in fact, very interested in sketches by famous artists. or unfinished fragments and story ideas from famous writers, etc
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Mesmerize
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Posts: 420


« Reply #32 on: Nov 30, 2005, 11:09:29 PM »

disrespect, my foot.  If anything wouldn't it be a show of IMMENSE respect that something so seemingly worthless is actually worth a lot to people?

and I for one would love to see a napkin Jack Kerouac scribbled on.
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the living dead!
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Posts: 649


« Reply #33 on: Nov 30, 2005, 11:09:47 PM »

Quote from: "rockmeamadeus"
Quote from: "Mesmerize"
If he didnt' want anyone to hear the songs he shouldn't have recorded them.


I call bullshit on this statement and strike it from the records.

It's a damned tape he recorded some songs on to.

Why is this such a fetish with musicans? You don't see napkins that Jack Kerouac scrawled football scores on, or a note Hemingway or Picasso jotted to their maids, being made so much of.

I really think this is the equivilant of someone selling a pair of pants that Monet painted in and got random paint streaks all over. Monet leaves them at some chicks house one day, 30 years later their on the auction block. In that it's bullshit and disrespect for the artist.
(This is a fictional scenario... but my point has been made.)


i don't think those scenarios are really that for from the truth, though. celebrity/icon worship can get pretty intense!
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end quote
rockmeamadeus
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Posts: 7199


« Reply #34 on: Nov 30, 2005, 11:12:06 PM »

Quote from: "Greg Nog"
Quote from: "rockmeamadeus"
or a note Hemingway or Picasso jotted to their maids, being made so much of.


Actually, yeah, I'm pretty sure I've seen news stories about Picasso's doodles selling for thousands of dollars.


You're right, of course... I was noting how it seems to be a fetish with music fans of late, that they have some sort of RIGHT to everything set to tape. Which really is an ugly thing.
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Ah_Pook
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Posts: 6082


« Reply #35 on: Nov 30, 2005, 11:17:17 PM »

let me ask you all this. lets say someone found a notebook in an attic somewhere of a bunch of never seen or published unfinished notes, sketches and fragments by Hemingway or Dostoyevsky or whoever. what would your stance be on how they should be handled?
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rockmeamadeus
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Posts: 7199


« Reply #36 on: Nov 30, 2005, 11:20:13 PM »

Quote from: "Mesmerize"
disrespect, my foot.  If anything wouldn't it be a show of IMMENSE respect that something so seemingly worthless is actually worth a lot to people?

and I for one would love to see a napkin Jack Kerouac scribbled on.


How ISN'T it disrespect? I don't think it's a question of worth so much as, you and I don't have the RIGHT to hear those things. Jeff gave us two albums, right? He said, "Here... I'm happy with these... take them and enjoy." Did we get any such permission for all this demo stuff? Hell nah. It's discarded tape... I just don;t think we have the right to hear it and fetishize it.
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the living dead!
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Posts: 649


« Reply #37 on: Nov 30, 2005, 11:20:53 PM »

Quote from: "Ah_Pook"
let me ask you all this. lets say someone found a notebook in an attic somewhere of a bunch of never seen or published unfinished notes, sketches and fragments by Hemingway or Dostoyevsky or whoever. what would your stance be on how they should be handled?


well, that would be up to their estate, wouldn't it?

however, that also raises the question of a dead person's privacy rights.
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end quote
rockmeamadeus
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Posts: 7199


« Reply #38 on: Nov 30, 2005, 11:21:53 PM »

Quote from: "Ah_Pook"
let me ask you all this. lets say someone found a notebook in an attic somewhere of a bunch of never seen or published unfinished notes, sketches and fragments by Hemingway or Dostoyevsky or whoever. what would your stance be on how they should be handled?


From an artistic standpoint: see my last post... I really don't think we have a right to see those things.

From a fan standpoint? The problem is that I WANT to see Dostoevsky notebooks... but really, I don't have a right to them.

Living Dead, you raise an excellent point... a dead person's privacy rights. How should that be handled? In an ideal world... Leadbelly records would be free. But the demos would be burned by someone who cared enough.
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Maaik
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Posts: 15119


« Reply #39 on: Nov 30, 2005, 11:24:55 PM »

I'm gonna have all the privacy I want when I'm dead.
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rockmeamadeus
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Posts: 7199


« Reply #40 on: Nov 30, 2005, 11:26:04 PM »

Quote from: "Maaik"
I'm gonna have all the privacy I want when I'm dead.


Not if I dig up your body and sell your ribs.
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Ah_Pook
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Posts: 6082


« Reply #41 on: Nov 30, 2005, 11:26:40 PM »

Quote from: "rockmeamadeus"
In an ideal world... Leadbelly records would be free. But the demos would be burned by someone who cared enough.


i cant fucking believe that a serious music fan would actually advocate that
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SPACERACE
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Posts: 12155


« Reply #42 on: Nov 30, 2005, 11:28:07 PM »

a), just because an artist made something, doesn't automatically put it in the public domain. i would think they're allowed to keep some things to themselves.

b) hemenway, dosoyevsky, kerouak et al. are 1. dead and 2. societal legends. jeff mangum is just a very talented musician who only a few people have even heard of. i think it does make a difference

c) kinda BS that she didn't find a way to ask him before releasing music he never released himself.
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rockmeamadeus
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Posts: 7199


« Reply #43 on: Nov 30, 2005, 11:29:15 PM »

Quote from: "Ah_Pook"
Quote from: "rockmeamadeus"
In an ideal world... Leadbelly records would be free. But the demos would be burned by someone who cared enough.


i cant fucking believe that a serious music fan would actually advocate that


Really? He wasn't God... and I love the man's music dearly... but he still has the right to his own work. And if he wanted every demo (assuming he actually recorded demos, a fact which is highly improbable) he ever made burned upon his death, then hell yes I say burn the things.
It's important that I respect him as a human first... his music is great and all, but if he don't want me to see his demos, that's his right.

And I've had my say, and that is really how I feel... I need to go read The Tempest. I respectfully bow out of the conversation... don't hate me, I love you all.
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Ah_Pook
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Posts: 6082


« Reply #44 on: Nov 30, 2005, 11:34:29 PM »

im done, you guys are beyond



in closing, remember kafka. have a good night.
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RavingLunatic
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Posts: 6408


« Reply #45 on: Nov 30, 2005, 11:34:54 PM »

Quote from: "rockmeamadeus"

The problem is that I WANT to see Dostoevsky notebooks... but really, I don't have a right to them.

Living Dead, you raise an excellent point... a dead person's privacy rights. How should that be handled? In an ideal world... Leadbelly records would be free. But the demos would be burned by someone who cared enough.


I think there's a big difference between a dead person's unfinished/never-meant-to-be-released stuff and a living person's. If the guy is alive and hasn't given permission for the stuff to be released, then it obviously shouldn't be released.

But if the guy is dead and never left any notice of whether he wanted that stuff to be released or not, how do we know that he maybe wouldn't want them published? And if fans and scholars will definitely enjoy or gain something from getting to read, listen to, or study them, then doesn't it seem like they should be released?

My favorite story is one that Mark Twain died before he completely finished. Some dude actually finished the story after Twain had died and didn't tell anyone that Twain never finished it, which is really reprehensible, but the actual manuscripts that Twain left are great, and I can't imagine him not wanting them to be out there.
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davy
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Posts: 24822


« Reply #46 on: Nov 30, 2005, 11:47:43 PM »

jeff mangum must feel like a dead horse.

i wouldn't come out in public either.
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Andrew_TSKS
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Posts: 39426


« Reply #47 on: Dec 01, 2005, 12:09:56 AM »

Quote from: "John"
good or bad, I think it's total bullshit to listen to something that a guy was careless enough to leave in a room, and that to do so is essentially an act of hostility toward the artist in question, and that "I love NMH so much I gotta listen to shit he'd rather I didn't hear at all" is baloney


nothing personal, john, but this is one subject on which we disagree about as much as is possible. i realize you could probably find a way to make that into me being hostile to all artists in the world in general and therefore towards you in specific, but it's not meant that way. i just REALLY REALLY disagree with this.

also, i'd be willing to bet that these are just songs that were on old nmh demoes, of which there were several from the 1993-95 era. EDIT: hadn't read piglet's post yet. that's pretty much what i expected. to be honest, i'd think a tape like this is better released this way than hoarded, sold on ebay for hundreds of dollars, and bootlegged. i'd be willing to bet that this was just a tape that got passed around amongst friends, many of whom have no idea of the significance that it would hold to people in certain segments of the indie-rock community. it ending up more widely distributed is probably an inevitability, especially considering the fact that it was distributed to some extent at the time. this is the most respectful way it could have happened, so i don't see why all the fuss from some of you.
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Andrew_TSKS
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Posts: 39426


« Reply #48 on: Dec 01, 2005, 12:15:02 AM »

Quote from: "Mesmerize"
Okay to get ideas on tape, got it.  I just don't really see why people would want to keep music private.  what are they afraid of?  who cares if a bunch of people on the internet are listening to (and loving) a bunch of stupid ideas for songs you had before you were famous?  who is it hurting?


the subset of songwriters who are whiny bitches. there i said it.
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Andrew_TSKS
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Posts: 39426


« Reply #49 on: Dec 01, 2005, 12:18:07 AM »

Quote from: "reeseboisse"
a), just because an artist made something, doesn't automatically put it in the public domain. i would think they're allowed to keep some things to themselves.


this is just like the argument we had in the goddamn boris thread. once they get distributed to ANYONE, it's fair game. hell, this tape the girl has was probably dubbed onto a fucking tdk anyway.

oh, fuck it, some of you are just dumb about this. i'm sure you think I'M the one who's dumb about this. what the fuck ever. no more discussion, this won't get resolved and all it will do is piss everyone off.
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