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658302 Posts in 9264 Topics by 3396 Members Latest Member: - vlozan86 Most online today: 48 - most online ever: 494 (Jul 01, 2007, 02:59:53 PM)
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Author Topic: neutral milk hotel demos  (Read 42130 times)
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SPACERACE
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« Reply #50 on: Dec 01, 2005, 12:19:01 AM »

why can't artists keep their art for themselves?
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jebreject
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« Reply #51 on: Dec 01, 2005, 12:27:59 AM »

Andrew, I think demos are a little different.  I have songs that I have recorded that I'd really rather no one ever hear, other than the few people who have heard them already, and just because they exist and have been put on a tape or cd-r, that doesn't change anything.  Those songs exist in a very specific context and to take them out of that context is disrespectful.  Now, of course, I'm not so delusional to think that there's any sort of market for my songs, so I'm not too worried about it, but I can see where John and everyone else is coming from.  There is, of course, there is the  question of whether there are pieces of art that "need" to be seen by the public, but that's not really something I feel comfortable getting in to, and I don't think it applies in this case, anyway.  Will I listen to these demos?  Probably.  But I do feel that ultimately if Jeff came out and said that he didn't want people hearing these songs, I would have to respect that.

(Interesting side question:  what is the role of the consumer, then?  If an artist has made public his views on certain pieces of his art, that they were not meant to be seen by the public, is the consumer then obligated to fufill the artist's wishes?  Is the consumer at all at fault, or does the blame rest with the person who actively went against the artist's wishes in releasing said art?)
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jebreject
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« Reply #52 on: Dec 01, 2005, 12:29:32 AM »

I mean, what rights do you think the artist DOES have, if he doesn't have the right to say what is done with his work?
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Antero
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« Reply #53 on: Dec 01, 2005, 12:32:00 AM »

*stirs the pot*

What's your opinion on concert bootlegs, he casually asked the room.
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Andrew_TSKS
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« Reply #54 on: Dec 01, 2005, 12:32:57 AM »

Quote from: "jebreject"
But I do feel that ultimately if Jeff came out and said that he didn't want people hearing these songs, I would have to respect that.


i would too. but only if jeff did. and i put the chances of that happening at 200 to 1 against. he probably doesn't even know or care that any of this is happening.

i'm not going to respond to anything else said in this thread. i'll just rant about wanting to cave people's skulls in, and that's not good for me or anyone else.
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Maaik
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« Reply #55 on: Dec 01, 2005, 12:59:39 AM »

Quote from: "Antero"
*stirs the pot*

What's your opinion on concert bootlegs, he casually asked the room.

I like 'em.  I mean, they're nothing like being there, but fuck it, I just want to hear the music.  I've got a boot of the Sex Pistols playing Atlanta back in '78.  It's quite awesome.  I also have several recordings of shows that I attended, which are really cool as well.

I respect an artist's right to privacy.  I'm not going to knock on anyone's door unless I was invited.  But I'm not sure how private a tape that Mangum left in his old house over a decade ago actually is.  If someone broke into his room and stole it, that's one thing, but this is kinda treading a line here.  In regards to this tape, there were no stated wishes left behind with it, apart from an implied "this stuff isn't important enough to take with me."

I do think that the guy from OTC should have contacted his friend Jeff and told him about this tape before unleashing it on the internet.  Cos the way they're going about it is almost like the way posthumous releases are put out.  That's pretty disrespectful.

But as far as the initial, excited "OMG you guys, I found this tape and I'm really excited about it, check this out!" I find it hard not to share that excitement.  Because it is pretty cool.

Besides, if it weren't for unauthorized releases, we wouldn't have half the Dingbats discography.
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rockmeamadeus
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« Reply #56 on: Dec 01, 2005, 01:25:02 AM »

Quote from: "Maaik"

Besides, if it weren't for unauthorized releases, we wouldn't have half the Dingbats discography.


Oh, Myke, WHY did you have to bring up a topic so close to my heart? I was afraid someone would mention them... damnit. Now I'm a hypocrite.
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Maaik
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« Reply #57 on: Dec 01, 2005, 01:35:24 AM »

Quote from: "rockmeamadeus"
Quote from: "Maaik"

Besides, if it weren't for unauthorized releases, we wouldn't have half the Dingbats discography.


Oh, Myke, WHY did you have to bring up a topic so close to my heart? I was afraid someone would mention them... damnit. Now I'm a hypocrite.

I mean, it's pretty well known that the Dingbats rarely intentionally recorded anything.  In fact, 1974's What Have You Done With All The Brylcreem? was captured entirely by a Scotland Yard surveillance team's bugging of the flat they were living and rehearsing in.
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rockmeamadeus
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« Reply #58 on: Dec 01, 2005, 01:37:19 AM »

That album has my 13-th favorite song of all time on it... "Baby, Let's Fuck the Moon with All Three of my Penises"... God, what a killer song.

OK, enough of that, I'm seriously getting out of this thread. Andrew bailed already, because we are completely polarized upon the issue... I'm glad he left before we argued, for I adore him so.
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shannon
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Posts: 9


« Reply #59 on: Dec 01, 2005, 01:42:06 AM »

okay okay. I heard about this hostile thread, and I had to comment. First of all, I know these people, they were my friends for many years, and I still see them when I'm able to travel to georgia. I didn't happen upon a tape left behind somewhere. It wasn't some rare find when I got it, and I wasn't the only one who had a copy. These were made for people to listen to, okay? It was back in a time when jeff didn't have a record deal, so he was recording on four tracks. Somehow that makes it private? I doubt it. If he wanted to keep this stuff private, he wouldn't have made copies for friends.

In addition to that, I could have easily been a jerk and tried to capitalize on this tape. But I would never do anything like that. It would be terrible for me to do so to Jeff as well as his fans. I had this tape for 11 years, and I always assumed all of this stuff was out there already. When I found out (quite by accident) that it wasn't, I thought people would like to hear them. I know how excited I've been over finding rare stuff by certain bands I like, and I thought it would be nice to do the same for others. It's a shame that a nice gesture can be turned into something ugly by a few negative people.  If I'd thought I was disrespecting Jeff by giving these songs to his fans, I wouldn't have done so. Jeff isn't a bitter, angry kind of guy - or at least he wasn't when I knew him. I really don't see any problem here. But of course there will always be those who try to find the bad in everything.

I mainly just wanted to clear up the misunderstanding posted earlier in this thread...I didn't FIND some secret tape in a box somewhere. I'm not some stranger that jeff never met who was going through his personal effects. We were both part of the same circle of friends (pun may or may not be intended).

At least I know I've managed to make a few people happy today, and that's nice.

-shannon palmer
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Andrew_TSKS
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« Reply #60 on: Dec 01, 2005, 01:44:40 AM »

i will now post in this thread again, despite previous assertions to the contrary.

thank you very much for telling your story, shannon. and i for one think you rule.

i will now return to my previous not-posting status.
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Lucy
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« Reply #61 on: Dec 01, 2005, 01:48:07 AM »

i'm sure i'm just totally being naive, but it always catches me off guard when people mentions "hearing about" one of our threads, like people actually read/talk about what we write or take it at all seriously. i mean, i know people can and do, but for whatever reason that draws a big "does not compute" over here. uhh, that's it, carry on...
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shannon
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« Reply #62 on: Dec 01, 2005, 01:48:51 AM »

thank you very much andrew. it's nice to know, at least, that most people have been extremely positive about this whole thing.
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Maaik
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« Reply #63 on: Dec 01, 2005, 01:50:44 AM »

Well wow, the wispy tentacles of LPTJ are quite a mysterious thing.

This is really awesome of you to clear this up a bit more.  I did download the songs you'd posted and I thank you for them.  Sorry I sorta accused you of necroaudiophillia.  That was kinda silly.

And thanks for stopping by.  Stick around a bit.  We get funnier than this, I promise.
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shannon
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« Reply #64 on: Dec 01, 2005, 01:50:59 AM »

i guess the only reason I would take it seriously is because a bunch of total strangers are posting about me, and trying to cast me in a negative light. I'm actually an okay person Smile or at least i'd like to think so.
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Maaik
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« Reply #65 on: Dec 01, 2005, 01:52:48 AM »

Hey shannon, you didn't happen to ever live with anyone who was ever in the Dingbats, did you?
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rockmeamadeus
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« Reply #66 on: Dec 01, 2005, 01:53:04 AM »

Quote from: "Lucy"
i'm sure i'm just totally being naive, but it always catches me off guard when people mentions "hearing about" one of our threads, like people actually read/talk about what we write or take it at all seriously. i mean, i know people can and do, but for whatever reason that draws a big "does not compute" over here. uhh, that's it, carry on...


(Lucy, LPTJ IS the indie-rock world... fuck Pitchfork, whatever we say goes. Their editorial staff comes here for the news.)

Shannon, awesome of you to post here... I wasn't attacking you, and am glad I got to hear how you acquired the tape... However, my argument has been stated, I have bowed out... just thanking you for dropping by and explaining yourself. Sorry we are all so excitable sometimes. But yeah... the biggest advocates of the 'fuck the tape jive' camp, JD and I, never cast you in a bad light. Don't get the wrong idea...

PS Maaik, I love you, man. Keep the dream alive.
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Lucy
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« Reply #67 on: Dec 01, 2005, 01:54:54 AM »

Quote from: "shannon"
i guess the only reason I would take it seriously is because a bunch of total strangers are posting about me, and trying to cast me in a negative light. I'm actually an okay person Smile or at least i'd like to think so.


i didn't actually read most of the thread, but i'd hope the debate would be more about the quality of the action rather than the quality of the person! if not, apologies, and thanks for posting. i'm sure you're more than okay, and maaik's right, most of our threads are a lot more entertaining if you feel like sticking around! welcome.
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Lucy
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« Reply #68 on: Dec 01, 2005, 01:56:31 AM »

Quote from: "rockmeamadeus"
(Lucy, LPTJ IS the indie-rock world... fuck Pitchfork, whatever we say goes. Their editorial staff comes here for the news.)


sayin'.
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shannon
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Posts: 9


« Reply #69 on: Dec 01, 2005, 02:03:56 AM »

thanks for being so welcoming, everyone! I have to admit, I was afraid I might get jumped on  Very Happy Seriously though, I'm not upset or anything, I just felt like I needed to let everyone know that I did what I did for only the purest of reasons, The Love of Music (yes, cheesy isn't it?) I would never want to exploit anyone, least of all a friend. And I do respect the opinions that you guys bring to the table. At first reading I was feeling defensive, but giving it more thought, I can see why you all feel the way that you do. And I do think if I'd found some private demo Jeff had accidentally left behind when I moved into his room, it would be uncool of me to distribute it. I only did so because I knew that at the time I got it, the tape was around. Other people had it, new and loved the songs, saw Jeff performing everytime we got a chance (he once played a show using my guitar; now THAT was great!) It wasn't a private thing then, and I assumed it probably still isn't. I hope I'm not wrong about that. I have a feeling that if any of Jeff's friends frequent the internet (and I imagine some would), he'll probably hear about this soon enough, and if he wants me to take down the files, I would certainly not hesitate to do so. I've already gotten a few emails today from long-lost college friends who found my blog today through all the hoopla... Anyway, thanks again for the warm welcome.
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jebreject
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« Reply #70 on: Dec 01, 2005, 02:37:11 AM »

I'm fairly certain no one was attacking you personally.  And yes, welcome to the club.  Take off your coat and stay a while.
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Nicholson
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Posts: 511


« Reply #71 on: Dec 01, 2005, 02:39:24 AM »

I mostly tried to be as ambivalent as possible with my information-relaying, as to not seem like a prick to anyone who was posting- now that you're here and I realize I maybe misconstrued things in my blog skimmings, I'd like to apologize for any shit-talking that commenced regarding the theoretical you.
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John
edit0r
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« Reply #72 on: Dec 01, 2005, 06:54:30 AM »

Shannon - welcome! I used to be pals with Jeff too, a million years ago. No harshness on you or anything - I'm passionate about the subject, but not to the point of hating on people (I do get heated up tho). So I hope you were never made to feel as though your own obvious love of the music were being called into question or anything.

and now, just to piss of Ah Pook (but also: yes this is my sincere opinion) - it's my belief that Max Brod should have respected his friend's wishes and destroyed the manuscripts. And I don't understand how anyone who cares about the rights of individuals to self-determination can disagree with that. "The importance to world literature" etc doesn't mean dick to me next to an artist's right to do as he sees fit with his work.

Concert bootlegs totally fine and all, live performance etc is a wholly separate issue.
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diesel_powered
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« Reply #73 on: Dec 01, 2005, 11:41:40 AM »

You know, just to throw my two cents in the pot, there are plenty of artists out there who would give limbs and organs to get a tenth of the notariety Jeff Magnum has. The artist agrees to give up certain rights to privacy when he agrees to public exhibition (unless you're Jandek and even he's been found by the press).

Ultimately, I believe there is a responsibility on both the artist and the consumer in this situation. The artist has to agree that there is a higher calling than purely his own vanity in the creation of art and the consumer has to agree to take the product in whatever shape it's presented in context, and I think that most artists grossly underestimate the ability of the consumer to do this. I mean, a bootlegged tape of a bunch of demos is a step on the path of creativity, not an arrival point. I know that, everyone else knows that. But ultimately, if it has to do with with the creation of the art, then I think it has a place for the consumer to hear.

The role of the artist is not to hide his particular creative light under a basket or spend all of his time staring at his own creative navel, but rather to share it with the rest of humanity. I mean, if a doctor drives past a car wreck and doesn't stop because he doesn't have a fully prepped surgical suite and he won't be able to show off his work in the best light, he's still an asshole.
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rockmeamadeus
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« Reply #74 on: Dec 01, 2005, 11:46:22 AM »

Yeah diesel (damnit I'm back in), but the thing is that an artist is still a person, and art doesn't exist in some other realm, unowned by artist or consumer. The art that an artist makes, they have every right to do whatever they like with it, just as you have every right to do whatever you want with that little house you've been building in your basement with toothpicks (yeah, I've seen it.)

I think that, being an artist, having to accept that consumers had a RIGHT to it... that I had a responsibility to provide it and not keep it to myself... well, I think that's kinda bull.
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