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658126 Posts in 9262 Topics by 3396 Members Latest Member: - vlozan86 Most online today: 44 - most online ever: 494 (Jul 01, 2007, 02:59:53 PM)
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Author Topic: In Bone There Is A Marketplace.  (Read 21044 times)
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Greg Nog
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« Reply #75 on: Feb 03, 2006, 04:02:57 PM »

Quote from: "Wally"
Can I just see if I am following this correctly?
You're suggesting that when you're young you seek novelty, perhaps because you want to seek knowledge, not for it's own sake but for the achivement of knowing more then others. At some point, at different ages for different folks you lose this desire, and seek out what's already comfortable. Which you wrap around yourself til you die, or move to Miami. I agree with this, and would hate to say if it's a good thing or a bad thing, as earlier in the thread I admitted I've moved to Miami.

So perhaps there's only a certain time you're willing to except new (musical) experiences?

Can you prolong this interest, by keeping your music listening seperate from the other parts of your life which may be jading you?

I'm almost sure that if you agree novelty tends to be youthful, then this accounts for a large amount of shock art, where the desire to be fresh is strong but there is a lack of depth in the ideas, or a lack of genuine follow through. As if just being novel is enough.

edit- Greg if you feel your head heading for the desk put a dildo in the way. Sideways on would hurt less.


My open-ended questions there were just that -- I don't really have anywhere I'm going with them, just trying to figure out if there's some kind of correlation between the impulse to want novelty and some other aspect of humanity, or some kind of correlation between the impulse to want familiarity (which is at least as popular/strong in people as the novelty-impulse) and some other aspect of humanity.  

But even if the novelty-desire can sorta be loosely correlated with youth, I'm not sure how much interesting discussion can really come out of that.

I don't really know where I'm going with this, I just know that I've been sorta turning it over in my mind for the last few days, whenever I'm washing dishes or something.

As for the head-slamming:  the front of my skull is fairly thick, so I can't follow the dildo suggestion, as it might shatter the dildo.  And nobody wants that.
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Wally
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Posts: 9184


« Reply #76 on: Feb 03, 2006, 04:18:55 PM »

Does the sound of a smashing dildo breaking count as original? f you recorded it, and sang about having 9,999 more? or has that been covered with green bottles.
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Andrew_TSKS
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Posts: 39426


« Reply #77 on: Feb 03, 2006, 04:35:17 PM »

the desire for novelty becoming replaced with age by a desire for familiarity is certainly a debatable urge. i've seen it happen to plenty of people, but on the other hand, look at john peel. that guy was in his 50s or 60s when he died, and he never stopped seeking out new sounds.

i myself find that, at the point i've reached in my life, most of the people i know who are my age are very much settled into comfortable ruts with their tastes, activities, etc. meanwhile, i'm just as discontented and desirous of new and interesting experiences as i ever was.

so what's the difference between me and my peer group, between john peel and, say, my dad (who is right around mr. peel's age)? who knows? but it's there, obviously.
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Wally
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« Reply #78 on: Feb 03, 2006, 09:21:34 PM »

With respect Andrew but are you on autopilot?
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Andrew_TSKS
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Posts: 39426


« Reply #79 on: Feb 03, 2006, 09:50:25 PM »

with respect? nice. what the fuck do you even mean? whatever, i get the point--i post too much. niiice.
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Wally
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Posts: 9184


« Reply #80 on: Feb 03, 2006, 09:58:48 PM »

No I don't even mean anything close to that. You don't post close enough for my liking. Dude, you got to know I love reading what you have to say, but that was my asshole reaction to not getting anything from that particular one, which is a rare thing.

Cheap shot. Sorry.

Seemed like you'd just rounded up a lot of other peoples points, which ain't usually what you do. I might wrong. Lets face it chances are high.
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RavingLunatic
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Posts: 6408


« Reply #81 on: Feb 03, 2006, 10:00:58 PM »

Well, I realize I'm really late to this thread, but I've read almost all of it and I'll add a few of my thoughts.

On the topic of people actively searching for novelty, isn't this just a natural result of listening to enormous amounts of music? If you listen to music a lot, like most people here, then you're naturally not going to want to listen to the same thing or even the same type of music every day. You'll become inured to its pleasure.

I mean, if there were no such thing as diminishing returns on music, I might just stop looking for new music and listen to my In the Aeroplane Over the Sea and nothing else for the rest of my life. Like Gracelette and Andrew, I just want music that I can relate to and that make me feel good. I sometimes look for new kinds of music not for the sake of novelty, but because I think new sounds will sound better to me and bring me more enjoyent than the same old.

 As it stands, I only listen to even my favorite albums once every couple months, because otherwise my enjoyment of it wanes. (I also wonder if this partly has to do with having a good memory. If you memorize every aspect of a song after just a few listens, then you'll be less surprised on subsequent listens than someone with a less powerful memory. Just a thought.)

I find that people who listen to music that all sounds about the same are people who don't listen to music all that much or all that closely (like maybe the radio is on in the background at work all day). It seems like people who care deeply about music and for whom it is an everyday part of their lives naturally search for new things, not out of some idealistic belief in musical progress or innovation, but because new stuff sounds fresher to their ears.

[/i]
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John
edit0r
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« Reply #82 on: Feb 03, 2006, 10:02:14 PM »

I think part of where I'm going is that there's this (sub)cultural tendency to EQUATE "new" with "interesting" & I'm saying: have we really examined whether that equation works, or is it actually like a religious, unexamined truth for many of us/possibly all of us?
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Andrew_TSKS
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« Reply #83 on: Feb 03, 2006, 10:05:06 PM »

Quote from: "Wally"
No I don't even mean anything close to that. You don't post close enough for my liking. Dude, you got to know I love reading what you have to say, but that was my asshole reaction to not getting anything from that particular one, which is a rare thing.

Cheap shot. Sorry.

Seemed like you'd just rounded up a lot of other peoples points, which ain't usually what you do. I might wrong. Lets face it chances are high.



shit, i mean, i didn't MEAN to... fuck. i don't know dude.

sorry i got grumpy, by the way. i'm kind of in a mood tonight. Much Love?
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RavingLunatic
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« Reply #84 on: Feb 03, 2006, 10:07:10 PM »

Quote from: "John"
I think part of where I'm going is that there's this (sub)cultural tendency to EQUATE "new" with "interesting" & I'm saying: have we really examined whether that equation works, or is it actually like a religious, unexamined truth for many of us/possibly all of us?


I see what you're saying. To me, the perfect example of that is Tinymixtapes and their Eureka! category. It always consists of experimental music that they give high ratings, and my experience has been that it's usually so weird as to preclude anything other than "intellectual" enjoyment (which I remain skeptical of). I ignore that part of the site now.
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Andrew_TSKS
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« Reply #85 on: Feb 03, 2006, 10:10:36 PM »

Quote from: "John"
I think part of where I'm going is that there's this (sub)cultural tendency to EQUATE "new" with "interesting" & I'm saying: have we really examined whether that equation works, or is it actually like a religious, unexamined truth for many of us/possibly all of us?


well, i can tell you that i personally don't see that equation as at all valid. whether something is or is not something i've heard before has nothing to do with how much i'm going to like it, usually. it's not completely irrelevant, because sometimes things are just too much like other things for me to be able to get into them. but then again, i bet if the things they were just like were things i liked enough, it wouldn't matter to me. like, some people think the sundays are this total smiths ripoff, just with female vocals. i personally say fuck it if they ARE, i love the smiths and i love the sundays. part of the reason i love the sundays may very well be BECAUSE i love the smiths.

on the other hand, i've been known to criticize a lot of bands that come out in recent years who sound just like american nightmare. now, i like american nightmare a good bit, but they're nothing OUTSTANDING or anything. i probably haven't listened to any of their records in over two years. maybe if i liked them more, i'd be more excited about the fact that they seem to have birthed an entire subgenre of hardcore.

i guess sometimes i will criticize a band sometimes for sounding too much like another band, but i would only think to include that on a list of reasons why i didn't like a band if i already had a few other reasons not to like them. if they sound very close to something i really like, i'm probably not going to care.

god, that was a bit overlong and repetitive. i think i got my point across though.
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Andrew_TSKS
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Posts: 39426


« Reply #86 on: Feb 03, 2006, 10:12:08 PM »

Quote from: "RavingLunatic"
Quote from: "John"
I think part of where I'm going is that there's this (sub)cultural tendency to EQUATE "new" with "interesting" & I'm saying: have we really examined whether that equation works, or is it actually like a religious, unexamined truth for many of us/possibly all of us?


I see what you're saying. To me, the perfect example of that is Tinymixtapes and their Eureka! category. It always consists of experimental music that they give high ratings, and my experience has been that it's usually so weird as to preclude anything other than "intellectual" enjoyment (which I remain skeptical of). I ignore that part of the site now.


haha what the hell is "intellectual enjoyment"? i mean, i guess i can picture what it refers to, but is their actually any joy involved at all?

i think i have more thoughts on this, but need to think about it for a while. in the meantime, feel free to unpack that term for me if you could, at least what you personally mean by it.
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RavingLunatic
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Posts: 6408


« Reply #87 on: Feb 03, 2006, 10:19:01 PM »

Quote from: "Andrew_TSKS"

haha what the hell is "intellectual enjoyment"? i mean, i guess i can picture what it refers to, but is their actually any joy involved at all?

i think i have more thoughts on this, but need to think about it for a while. in the meantime, feel free to unpack that term for me if you could, at least what you personally mean by it.


Yeah, I feel the same way. I think it's all bullshit, but I get the impression from some of the reviews and stuff I read that some people say an album is good purely because of its innovation and uniqueness and not because they actually enjoy listening to it. I suppose that's what "intellectual enjoyment" means. I'm not sure if I've heard that exact term used, but I think it's a good word for it.

I got in an related argument recently in a different forum over whether you can recognize the greatness of an album even if you don't like that album at all. I was pretty much the only person who argued that you cannot call an album great of it sounds horrible to you. Everyone else was arguing that you can tell that an album is great regardless of whether you like it, which I think is a load of crap.
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heather marie
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Posts: 5753


« Reply #88 on: Feb 03, 2006, 10:22:23 PM »

i think i say that things like "oh, um, this album/musician is good but not my thing" when i really mean "this person can play and/or write music which is more than i can do so props to them but jesus christ it makes me want to die" because i am bad at being critical. but that's just me. plus, i suck at life*.

*the only valid sentence worth mentioning.
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Wally
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Posts: 9184


« Reply #89 on: Feb 03, 2006, 10:31:19 PM »

I would assume intellectual enjoyment, would be enjoyment in which you use the previous knowledge your brain has aqquired. Now maybe you don not use  all your brain when you listen to music, maybe for some there is a focus on personal memories, for some what they have learnt about music technique or style, structure. Bleh, not wanting to go down there, but just giving intellectual quote marks, and cleary frowing on it is a little silly. We hear, the sounds go into our ears, and then our brains, so on some level any reception is intellectual. I

Ack that is almost certainly giberish and certainly not interesting for this thread.


As for what John was trying to lead the discussion towards, I can not really put any opinions together, but lets hope the discussion goes that way rather then the "intellectual" vs the "emotional" , it could be sliding towards.
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SPACERACE
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Posts: 12155


« Reply #90 on: Feb 03, 2006, 10:35:25 PM »

i don't want to listen to music "intellectualy", which is why i don't listen to much music that i know is well made, but that i have no desire to listen to.
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Andrew_TSKS
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« Reply #91 on: Feb 03, 2006, 11:12:16 PM »

Quote from: "RavingLunatic"
I got in an related argument recently in a different forum over whether you can recognize the greatness of an album even if you don't like that album at all. I was pretty much the only person who argued that you cannot call an album great of it sounds horrible to you. Everyone else was arguing that you can tell that an album is great regardless of whether you like it, which I think is a load of crap.


well, i will agree that you can tell how well something is written and how well something is played, on purely theoretical levels. but then again, there's this great part in jim derogatis's book "turn on your mind", which is about psychedelic music, where he tells a grateful dead scholar/enthusiast that the 13th floor elevators were a better band, and the dude flips out. i totally agreed with mr. derogatis, too. i can admit that the grateful dead were far more technically talented musicians, and that their music shows this, but does that make it better? in my opinion, fuck no, it does not.  i can understand why people make the "good for what it is, but what it is is not my thing at all" comment, and in fact i say it quite often myself. but that's not the same as saying something is actually good, so i think i agree with you. haha does that make sense?
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Andrew_TSKS
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« Reply #92 on: Feb 03, 2006, 11:13:16 PM »

but i agree with wally that whether or not "new" = "interesting" is a subject we should endeavor to stick to, so i apologize for furthering the tangent.
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jebreject
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« Reply #93 on: Feb 04, 2006, 02:24:21 AM »

It's hard for me to post something about the whole intellect vs. emotion thing, but I guess for the sake of everyone's sanity, I'll leave it be for now.
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theartlessmonster
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Posts: 5178


« Reply #94 on: Feb 04, 2006, 11:20:10 AM »

Okay, so if new = interesting?  does old = boring?

I personally don't think either of those equations work all the time.  It's not like saying 1+1=2 period, always.

For me, new, sometimes = interesting, and old, sometimes = boring.  But I don't see any direct correlation in any sort of consistent pattern, in music anyways.  I guess maybe I am not in the subculture that might believe that new = interesting.

Also, I find I like monotonous too, which some folks might say is old and boring but some pieces can explore the same "old" musical idea from different perspectives.  I like a constant repeating rhythm pattern which seems "old" maybe but it somehow creates for me, an atmosphere that is exotic when I hear it.

For me, I can listen to someone with just an acoustic guitar and singing not doing anything "new" or expirmental at all, but I will find it interesting because that's not the only component to the song either. I find lyrics extremely interesting, or just the whole feeling of the live performance, or maybe it's not so much that I find it interesting as engaging.

Also, I would add I think you guys may have been onto something with the youth and "new sounds" thing.  I think that has to do with a generation latching onto new sounds as part of thier identity, they are usually the first adopters of a new sound, and possibly to separate themselves from their "old" parents music. I was at a party over the summer and a teenager there kept saying to his parents "can we put some of MY music on?" or they make comments "you don't like MY music" I think they actively seek new sounds so they can own it as part of thier generation, exerting how they are different from thier parents.  

mkay, that's my thought for now.
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Wally
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Posts: 9184


« Reply #95 on: Feb 06, 2006, 02:04:30 PM »

The social disease that makes us think anything new is interesting, could come from the constant distractions which come at us. Our attentions spans have become so short, that we scream for something new to entertain us everyday. This reflects on our inabilities to create long lasting relationships with others, and our inability to follow artists work for longer then they are news. We are told daily, that something fresh new and wonderful is coming out soon, so even when it isn't we are looking for it. Of course this could be personal rather then social, but saying social makes me feel part of something bigger then myself. the end.
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Andrew_TSKS
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« Reply #96 on: Feb 06, 2006, 02:07:01 PM »

interesting concept, wally. so are you thinking that this is a result of the faster pace of modern life? say, something that's only come into existence in the past century or less? i like your theory that this impacts on our abilities to form lasting relationships as well. again, interesting.
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SPACERACE
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« Reply #97 on: Feb 06, 2006, 02:13:22 PM »

well who are we to say that this is something new? i'd be wiling to bet we've had short attention spans since we could have been considered humans. and humans were never meant to be monogamous, nor have long lasting relationships, neccesarily.

we're animals, and how long do you see animals care about something? as long as they have to, and no more.
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Andrew_TSKS
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« Reply #98 on: Feb 06, 2006, 02:18:19 PM »

Quote from: "reeseboisse"
humans were never meant to be monogamous, nor have long lasting relationships


that's a not only unproven but unprovable assertion. who's to say humans were "meant" to do ANYTHING in particular?

on the other hand, you can't deny that life is far faster-paced now than it was in, say, 1850. this is all due to man-made advances in technology.
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Wally
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Posts: 9184


« Reply #99 on: Feb 06, 2006, 02:35:10 PM »

Quote from: "Andrew_TSKS"
interesting concept, wally. so are you thinking that this is a result of the faster pace of modern life? say, something that's only come into existence in the past century or less? i like your theory that this impacts on our abilities to form lasting relationships as well. again, interesting.


Modern life has little to do with the question at hand, mass produced music is an aspect of modern life. One hundred and fifty years ago no one in Liverpool was looking for the latest avant garde record from H-town, these days thats not the case. People want the new, and I was just giving a possible reason why. I'm curious as to why people can't be calmed with what they have, why can't they be bothered to look at what they have and either enjoy what's there, knowing nothing can be better or,  search for unexplained shit going on that they haven't seen yet. This works with people and with art. Folks rush to the next thing in search of something that has a more attainable freshness. Rather then working with what they have and exploring the layers, and all that other shit. Why we do this, whether it's the wise thing to do, bollocks if I know. Just seems interesting to me
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