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658143 Posts in 9262 Topics by 3396 Members Latest Member: - vlozan86 Most online today: 48 - most online ever: 494 (Jul 01, 2007, 02:59:53 PM)
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Author Topic: True or False: Hall & Oates were as "equally gifted" as Michael Jackson  (Read 10825 times)
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slow west vultures
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Posts: 2326


« Reply #50 on: Oct 21, 2007, 06:22:47 PM »

fwiw, the first time i heard a hall and oates song - not knowing who they were, not even knowing i was listening to hall and oates  - was 'she's gone' on the radio.  and i really liked the song, and i was thinking 'this sounds like some black soul group i've never heard before'.  it was only a couple months later that i learned 'whoa, these dudes are white?'  and then several more months later how awesomely ironic they looked.  they were playing at the state fair two years ago and i seriously considered going to that show.  and my friend's friends in LA showed me a picture of themselves dressed up as hall and oates for halloween last year, and it was pretty much the most awesome costume ever. 

the end. 
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RavingLunatic
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« Reply #51 on: Oct 21, 2007, 08:25:46 PM »

sasha frere jones comes to my store sometimes. if he ever calls me up, i'll grab this thread and start reading it aloud to him.

Man, you get a lot of prominent people coming into your store.
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girl
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« Reply #52 on: Oct 21, 2007, 08:35:51 PM »

We can all agree about the SFJ-being-a-douche part, though, right?

If I recall correctly, murk was a fan. Sometimes I wish he would come back (again).
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coldforge
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Posts: 11924


« Reply #53 on: Oct 21, 2007, 10:18:54 PM »

sasha frere jones comes to my store sometimes. if he ever calls me up, i'll grab this thread and start reading it aloud to him.

Man, you get a lot of prominent people coming into your store.

Honestly, I don't, relatively speaking. The apple store and tekserve both get much more. I just happen to work in New York City, the geographical area probably most densely packed with prominent people of all the world.
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jebreject
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« Reply #54 on: Oct 22, 2007, 01:53:05 AM »

Michael Jackson is worse than he's given credit for

 Shocked
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jebreject
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« Reply #55 on: Oct 22, 2007, 01:54:05 AM »

We can all agree about the SFJ-being-a-douche part, though, right?

If I recall correctly, murk was a fan. Sometimes I wish he would come back (again).

No, you don't.
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girl
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« Reply #56 on: Oct 22, 2007, 01:56:19 AM »

We can all agree about the SFJ-being-a-douche part, though, right?

If I recall correctly, murk was a fan. Sometimes I wish he would come back (again).

No, you don't.

I love jeb.
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jebreject
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« Reply #57 on: Oct 22, 2007, 02:21:28 AM »

Aww!

Jeb loves you too!
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Charming Tedious
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Posts: 731


« Reply #58 on: Oct 22, 2007, 04:36:28 AM »

Christ, someone on ILM pointed out that dude sets up his terms to prove his points and then when they inevitably do, acts as if he's found some suprising insight.

Totally weak!

the most basic example of this pattern is his little aside about Wilco;  YHF was released on Nonesuch and, he tells us, went on to be one of the most acclaimed indie-rock records of the last five years.  We are supposed to take this as evidence that "indie" no longer refers to an economic model (indie vs corporate).  But this rests on his assertion that YHF is "indie rock".  Who the fuck besides Sasha Frere-Jones refers to YHF as indie?  Begging the question a little, buddy?

Granted, the waters are muddy right now, but that's a phenomenon that needs careful unpacking, and these sort of sweeping pronouncements obscure much more than they reveal.

I love love love Carl Wilson's response in slate, and when he cited NINJA HIGH SCHOOL (the most important band in the world) to make one of his points
« Last Edit: Oct 22, 2007, 04:52:56 AM by Charming Tedious » Logged
Danen
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« Reply #59 on: Oct 22, 2007, 08:45:03 AM »


I love love love Carl Wilson's response in slate, and when he cited NINJA HIGH SCHOOL (the most important band in the world) to make one of his points

Oh WOW. Wilson (contrary to Jones) is one of my fave writers at the moment. Don't always agree with him, but what would be the fun in that? the New Yorker should hire him to write about indie rock!
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Andrew_TSKS
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« Reply #60 on: Oct 22, 2007, 11:55:09 AM »

Andrew might be able to speak to this, I think he's on record as an expert.

me? no way, dude, you know more about hall and oates than i do. all i know is that daryl hall has weird late 70s/early 80s avant garde connections with robert fripp and etc. and i know this stuff because of reading about king crimson and seeing references to daryl hall, not because of studying hall and oates and running across references to king crimson. if that makes sense.

as far as hall and oates go, i really like that song "rich girl". that's about all i got.

EDIT: googling this carl wilson response right now. will report back.
« Last Edit: Oct 22, 2007, 11:57:04 AM by Andrew_TSKS » Logged

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hannah
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« Reply #61 on: Oct 22, 2007, 12:04:00 PM »

I mean, how is it at all helpful to separate music into categories of black music and white music, or having that act as some kind of continuum?

Exactly. What in the hell is the point? Someone earlier was talking about how the article is unfocused, and I think that's an understatement.

Sorry, that remark was meant to be kind of tongue-in-cheek. Carl Wilson's right in that thing needed more drafts. I hope whatever draft would've/should've come next would've done away with the perplexing conclusion:

Quote
The uneasy, and sometimes inappropriate, borrowings and imitations that set rock and roll in motion gave popular music a heat and an intensity that can’t be duplicated today, and the loss isn’t just musical; it's also about risk. Rock and roll was never a synonym for a polite handshake. If you've forgotten where the term came from, look it up. There’s a reason the lights were off.

...which only underscores Andrew's "jungle fever" reservations above, and also comes out of nowhere. Wait, musical miscegenation is "risky" now? Or "sexy"?

Also: just because Limp Bizkit is awful doesn't mean they didn't sell records.
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auto-da-fey
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« Reply #62 on: Oct 22, 2007, 12:35:52 PM »

and i know this stuff because of reading about king crimson and seeing references to daryl hall, not because of studying hall and oates and running across references to king crimson. if that makes sense.

Gotcha. That makes sense. Though I mean, you did know the album tracks on Big Bam Boom and Ooh Yeah, which isn't exactly a mere passing familiarity with the dudes.
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Andrew_TSKS
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Posts: 39426


« Reply #63 on: Oct 22, 2007, 02:54:58 PM »

oh ok, yeah, i liked them when i was young. i owned "big bam boom" on vinyl when i was 12 or so. but i have enough perspective now to realize that those albums are pretty terrible. and i hear they were actually good in the 70s, a period of their work i know very little about. so really, i'm a lot more equipped to point one to hall and oates's "invincible" than their "thriller".
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dieblucasdie
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« Reply #64 on: Oct 22, 2007, 02:57:54 PM »


I love love love Carl Wilson's response in slate, and when he cited NINJA HIGH SCHOOL (the most important band in the world) to make one of his points

Oh WOW. Wilson (contrary to Jones) is one of my fave writers at the moment. Don't always agree with him, but what would be the fun in that? the New Yorker should hire him to write about indie rock!

Yeah, that article is much more intellectually honest, and hence much more interesting.  There's still some big problems with it though, methinks.
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Andrew_TSKS
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« Reply #65 on: Oct 22, 2007, 02:59:16 PM »

it did have some really interesting points about class in it, yeah. don't really know how i feel about wilson's thesis as a whole, but that's a marked improvement from my response to sfj's which was "KILL!"
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dieblucasdie
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« Reply #66 on: Oct 22, 2007, 03:14:34 PM »

The "KILL" was made even weirder by the fact that he was talking about bands he usually writes favorably about.

"Why aren't all the bands I like black enough?!?!?!"

Um, dude, listen to different bands then.
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lastclearchance
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« Reply #67 on: Oct 23, 2007, 05:23:58 PM »

Oh WOW. Wilson (contrary to Jones) is one of my fave writers at the moment. Don't always agree with him, but what would be the fun in that? the New Yorker should hire him to write about indie rock!

Love Carl Wilson but who else would do what he does for Toronto? If we really need someone to write inflammatory indie-rock trendpieces I personally think Nick Sylvester would do a hell of a lot better job at it than S/FJ.
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Cowboy Dan
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« Reply #68 on: Oct 25, 2007, 07:49:41 PM »

http://www.stereogum.com/archives/magazine-music-writer-war-the-new-yorker-vs-playbo.html

i think SFJ's full of shit on this whole thing, but ui was awesome
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jebreject
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« Reply #69 on: Oct 26, 2007, 04:51:59 AM »

Playboy FTW, I guess.
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Andrew_TSKS
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« Reply #70 on: Oct 26, 2007, 04:22:17 PM »

no guess about it! that dude raked sfj over the coals with authority!

Quote
Frere-Jones’ argument is predicated on two bullshit dichotomies. Early in his essay he describes how “Elvis Presley stole the world away from Pat Boone and moved popular music from the head to the hips.” There are two glaring problems with this assessment. First it subscribes to the age-old notion that mind and body represent opposing forces, the idea that intellectual urges and sexual urges are mutually contradictory and thus forever locked in a Manichean battle for the souls of teenage pop music listeners. It should go without saying in this day and age that this notion is rubbish: The desire to read and the desire to fuck live comfortably side by side in many well-adjusted teens of both sexes.

Worse still, Frere-Jones ascribes racial attributes to the two sides of this outmoded dichotomy: Mind is white, body black. Thus, to Frere-Jones, the Arcade Fire (“the drummer and the bassist rarely played syncopated patterns or lingered in the low registers”) is pedantic, sexless and indicative of whiteness, while Mick Jagger (“He sang with weird menace and charm”) is lusty, soulful and indicative of blackness—or rather, in his parlance, miscegenation.

then later:

Quote
But one thing is clear: Frere-Jones beats up on a mere straw man in this piece. His arbitrary definition of indie—white guitar bands descended from the Beach Boys rather than the blues—is a make-believe genre from which he has already eliminated anything he sees as black-influenced music, making his criticism of it as not sufficiently black absurd. Only when he forces this twee subgenre of his own creation to stand in for the broad totality of indie can he make his argument at all, and even then it must be made with obnoxious insinuations based on an embarrassing set of racial and sexual anachronisms. Since his stock in trade is calling other people names—he famously branded Stephin Merritt a racist because Merritt published a list of his favorite musicians of the 20th century in Time Out New York without, Frere-Jones insisted, a sufficient number of black artists on it—Frere-Jones’ alarming lack of self-awareness must not be laughed off or excused. With this piece Frere-Jones has demonstrated himself every bit the racist—for buying into this pathetically regressive set of ideas—as any 1950s Southern preacher who decried white interest in animalistic, vulgar race music. That Frere-Jones’ delineates and fetishizes the other—this carnal, black backbeat, this jungle sexuality he insists on placing in contradiction to cerebral, “oblique,” “flat-footed,” white rock—should damn him alongside those who delineate and vilify the other; both visions assign the same traits to blackness.

BAM! the exact point i incoherently touched on days ago. this dude has hit the nail on the head, and i love that frere-jones is now being called out for racism, and for less specious reasons than he himself has called others out for the same thing. you reap what you sow, sasha.
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Greg Nog
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Posts: 21629


« Reply #71 on: Oct 26, 2007, 04:38:58 PM »

Yeah, that excerpt from Playboy was like watching one dude using Ryu score a Perfect against some other dude using Zangief.  You kind of feel bad for the Russian, but the unmitigated destruction of non-stop uppercuts and fireballs has a certain cruel beauty that just sends shivers down the spine.
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RavingLunatic
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« Reply #72 on: Oct 27, 2007, 01:13:13 AM »

Yeah, that excerpt from Playboy was like watching one dude using Ryu score a Perfect against some other dude using Zangief.  You kind of feel bad for the Russian, but the unmitigated destruction of non-stop uppercuts and fireballs has a certain cruel beauty that just sends shivers down the spine.

Have you seen Street Fighter: The Later Years? Pretty funny stuff. The series isn't finished yet.
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Greg Nog
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« Reply #73 on: Oct 27, 2007, 08:31:13 AM »

Yeah, the weirdest thing about that is apparently it was filmed near me; the first shot of the series is at the Barcade, and the guy playing Sagat was this Brazilian opera-singer who used to be the bouncer there.
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nonotyet
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« Reply #74 on: Oct 30, 2007, 05:24:21 PM »

Win Butler Responds To Sasha Frere-Jones, Results Less Exciting Than Playboy
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